Author Topic: Another McNab burial Dalbeth cemetery  (Read 8215 times)

Offline sancti

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Re: Another McNab burial Dalbeth cemetery
« Reply #36 on: Friday 15 September 23 19:42 BST (UK) »
The Greenock Telegraph 5 March 1884


Offline maggbill

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Re: Another McNab burial Dalbeth cemetery
« Reply #37 on: Saturday 16 September 23 00:44 BST (UK) »
Hi Sancti

Thanks for these newspaper clippings... I had already found the first and third of them, but not the second which states that the body was considerably decomposed..... Now that certainly begins to add to the option that in fact the Hugh McNab on the memorial  is likely to be my Hugh who was the body in Greenock harbour.  Can you tell me what newspaper that second one was from?  If in fact my Hugh went "missing" for a considerable time, it certainly adds to the sadness of the story.  His wife Mary Martin went through so many losses - I have sent more detailed info to Cladhan.... And Hugh's own family, siblings and parents have sorry tales to tell.  It seems that after moving to Glasgow, they went through the issues of "Poor Law Relief", "Fever Hospital", losing their 4 daughters (rangeing from causes as TB - to "Fever" in the far off land of Karachi), after about 8 years the parents appear to move back to Ireland, with a grandaughter (who disappears from records)... and they end up dying in 1885 and 1890 - the father dying in the Poor House.   Wow, - the tales of ancestors who endured these incredibly difficult times - deserve to be rememebered... We wouldn't be here today without them!!!
McNab, Kenney, Johnstone, Carrigan, (Cargan, Kirgan, Corrigan), Toll, Tracey, McNulty,  Reilly, Maguire, Loughlin, Banks, McGonagle, Forsyth, McDonald, Michael,  Kennedy, Bagnell, Cronan, Dunleavy, McMullan. -  Glasgow, Ireland, British Columbia Canada, Manchester New Hampshire USA.

Offline maggbill

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Re: Another McNab burial Dalbeth cemetery
« Reply #38 on: Saturday 16 September 23 00:45 BST (UK) »
Oh sorry Sancti

I see it was the Glasgow Evening Times..... Thanks again.
McNab, Kenney, Johnstone, Carrigan, (Cargan, Kirgan, Corrigan), Toll, Tracey, McNulty,  Reilly, Maguire, Loughlin, Banks, McGonagle, Forsyth, McDonald, Michael,  Kennedy, Bagnell, Cronan, Dunleavy, McMullan. -  Glasgow, Ireland, British Columbia Canada, Manchester New Hampshire USA.

Offline sancti

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Re: Another McNab burial Dalbeth cemetery
« Reply #39 on: Saturday 16 September 23 10:50 BST (UK) »
Did Mary Martin/McNab make a claim for Poor Relief when Hugh went missing?


Offline maggbill

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Re: Another McNab burial Dalbeth cemetery
« Reply #40 on: Sunday 17 September 23 02:29 BST (UK) »
Hi there Sancti,

Hadn't thought of doing a Poor Law Relief search - thanks for the reminder.  Haven't done one of them for a long time - hope the system is still the same.... The wife Mary McNab (Martin) had an enormously stressful time, so there are strong possibilities of some records - and when finding these sort of records for other family members, have found a wealth of information!!  Will chase it up

McNab, Kenney, Johnstone, Carrigan, (Cargan, Kirgan, Corrigan), Toll, Tracey, McNulty,  Reilly, Maguire, Loughlin, Banks, McGonagle, Forsyth, McDonald, Michael,  Kennedy, Bagnell, Cronan, Dunleavy, McMullan. -  Glasgow, Ireland, British Columbia Canada, Manchester New Hampshire USA.

Offline Cladhan

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Re: Another McNab burial Dalbeth cemetery
« Reply #41 on: Sunday 17 September 23 15:44 BST (UK) »
I’ve been intrigued enough by the questions over Hugh’s fate to consult the science over body decomposition in freshwater.  The outcome is that it’s entirely feasible that he did enter the water in late October 1883 and reach the reported ‘considerably decomposed’ state (Glasgow Evening Times).

An international standard for determining how long a body was in water was established in the following scientific paper, which relied heavily on details of 125 bodies recovered from the River Clyde in Glasgow, with immersion periods of a few minutes (0 days) to 192 days.
Predicting the Postmortem Submersion Interval for Human Remains Recovered from U.K. Waterways. Heaton et al. Journal of Forensic Science (2010) 55: 302-307.

Let me summarise from the study.
Well established pathological states were compared with known times in the water, allowing the scientists ‘to produce a single linear regression model for predicting ADD from observed decomposition’. ADD is the Average Daily temperature for the number of Days in water - time and temperature are the main determinants of decomposition.

What I’ve deduced is that Hugh could have entered the water late in October and stayed submerged until early March - the Clyde was incredibly busy, and a floating body would have been seen very soon. His heavy clothing would have contributed to submersion. Submersion and low temperature are key factors in inhibiting decomposition. His body would have headed downstream slowly, being delayed by twice-daily upstream shifts due to the tidal behaviour of the Clyde. 

I’ve applied the time and feasible temperature data of Hugh’s circumstances into the ADD model. There isn’t a database of Scottish river temperatures, but in England, river temperatures Nov-Feb inclusive (when Hugh is hypothesised to have been in the water) are 5 degrees. The number of days was 127. The output from the model is that the body would have had a pathological score of 18-19, on a scale of 1-25.  Looking at the reference pathological descriptions (gruesome reading!), it is fair to say they would fit with ‘considerably decomposed’, but being well short of complete decomposition.

Overall, then, it is feasible that poor Hugh entered the water late in October.
We should bear in mind also that the memorial in Dalbeth would have been inscribed in consultation with his family, who surely would have provided the October date.
In conclusion, and bearing in mind that genealogy often evades certainty, my belief is that Hugh on the memorial indeed might well be the unfortunate Hugh whose body was found in Greenock.

Offline maggbill

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Re: Another McNab burial Dalbeth cemetery
« Reply #42 on: Monday 18 September 23 06:36 BST (UK) »
Hiya Cladhan,

You sure have gone to great technical depths in your time analysis - and I am also coming to the belief that we are speaking of the one and same Hugh McNab. 
Can you tell me any more about the Memorial itself?  when was it built/installed?  I don't suppose there are any records left/available of this, whether from a RC church point of view, or from a Cemetery/council view?  You have certainly resurrected my passion for the story of my Great grandfather - and I now need to try for "Poor Law Relief" records and obviously I need to update my "Story", which I am wondering if you received from me. 
McNab, Kenney, Johnstone, Carrigan, (Cargan, Kirgan, Corrigan), Toll, Tracey, McNulty,  Reilly, Maguire, Loughlin, Banks, McGonagle, Forsyth, McDonald, Michael,  Kennedy, Bagnell, Cronan, Dunleavy, McMullan. -  Glasgow, Ireland, British Columbia Canada, Manchester New Hampshire USA.

Offline maggbill

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Re: Another McNab burial Dalbeth cemetery
« Reply #43 on: Monday 18 September 23 07:18 BST (UK) »
sorry to bombard you with questions Cladhan.

Could you supply me with "old school" details on the location of this specific memorial?  I know you have suggested what3words, but I am a bit of a dinosaur - Don't have an Apple device to download the app.  Can you give me an actual old style map or "lair" type details?  A sister of mine has just flown from Australia for a quick trip to Scotland, - she won't have time to add to her schedule, but would have been great for her to do a "Dalbeth" trip, as lots of the family have done over the years without knowing fully what family history lies there.... Cheers
McNab, Kenney, Johnstone, Carrigan, (Cargan, Kirgan, Corrigan), Toll, Tracey, McNulty,  Reilly, Maguire, Loughlin, Banks, McGonagle, Forsyth, McDonald, Michael,  Kennedy, Bagnell, Cronan, Dunleavy, McMullan. -  Glasgow, Ireland, British Columbia Canada, Manchester New Hampshire USA.

Offline maggbill

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Re: Another McNab burial Dalbeth cemetery
« Reply #44 on: Monday 18 September 23 07:46 BST (UK) »
Me again Cladhan!!!

My McNab family Lair where Hugh's mob are buried is Lair 109, Section 8E - Just wondering if the memorial is nearby or not
McNab, Kenney, Johnstone, Carrigan, (Cargan, Kirgan, Corrigan), Toll, Tracey, McNulty,  Reilly, Maguire, Loughlin, Banks, McGonagle, Forsyth, McDonald, Michael,  Kennedy, Bagnell, Cronan, Dunleavy, McMullan. -  Glasgow, Ireland, British Columbia Canada, Manchester New Hampshire USA.