Finding proof of relation to my father

[wrjones]

I'm a little  curious about your Richard Moore.Is there an Isle of Man connection with his family?There was one with the Moore that married one of my relatives and who lived in the Earlstown area in 1901.

Regards
William Russell Jones.

[silvery]

You may need this marriage cert to prove it is the same Sarah Ann Thomas, with the same father's name (if any) which will be on the marriage certs.

Marriages Dec 1899  
Moore    Edward        Stourbridge    6c   288   
Stevens    John         Stourbridge    6c   288   <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<  
Thomas    Phoebe Ann         Stourbridge    6c   288     
Thomas    Sarah Ann         Stourbridge    6c   288 <<<<<<<<<<<<<

This looks like them

1901 census RG13/2759/69/10.  (in Stourbridge reg dist)  can't quite read the address, but it's a 3 roomed dwelling

Edward Moore    28 glass ? maker b
Phoebe Moore    28 b Brockmore
Hannah Thomas    54 mother in law b Brockmore
John Stevens    24 lodger railway lab b Brettell Lane, Staffs
Sarah A Stevens    21 b Brockmore Staffs

and look who the other couple is on the above marriage index.  (four to a page)

[Michmoor]

One thing occurred to me last night that may place a bit of a spanner in the works, Joseph and Sarah were married in 1917, yet Mabel was born in 1911!  Therefore if the Sarah are the same person it means Mabel was born prior to her registered parents being married!  I do not know when John died tho a quick search showed someone matching the name and area died in 1910.  I still think the two Sarah's are the same, the chances of exactly the same names seems just too much of a coincidence to me!

We know this was a time of turmoil for the family, John worked in the railway and had a severe head injury which made him very ill, we know Violet was in someway injured by John, her father, maybe Sarah sort solace with Joseph because she could not cope with Johns illness and Mabel was the result, and moved to Manchester together to escape the shame and then married when they could.  This is just conjecture no real evidence although the is still one elderly relative still alive in Dudley in a nursing home though ill, have been meaning to visit now have a good reason maybe she can recall a few details which could help.

However I have established a blood relation between Thelma and my father which is what I wanted.

Mr Jones you asked about my grandfather Richard Moore, he was a Salford man born and bred, as you can see from the posts there is a Isle of Man connection with another side of family, Horrocks then Simpson then Bridson, it is possible Richard may have had connection which could be how Thelma met Marshall Bridson her husband who was from the Isle of man, I am not sure where Earlstown is, is it in London?  If so we know of no connection.

The above has been very helpful and now I think I need to go to the records and thank you to all who contributed and help me on my way, will let you know how it concludes.

[toni*]

if you have birth certificates of your father and the deceased this will tel you their parents names you then need to find the marriages of the common person
 

[wrjones]

Thanks,Earlstown is near Widnes in the Prescot District.

Regards
William Russell Jones.

[Michmoor]

Hello All,

Thought I would give you a update as the certificates I ordered have arrived and have come back with some very interesting results.

First of all Mabel's birth certificate states on it as mother "Sarah Ann Horrocks late Stevens formally Thomas" which I think is good evidence that Sarah Ann Stevens and Sarah Ann Horrocks is indeed the same person as I concluded in previous posts.  My grandmother Violets birth certificate states mother "Sarah Ann Stevens formerly Thomas" and father John Thomas Stevens again I think with all of your help I now have evidence Violet and Mabel were half sisters and my father and Thelma first cousins by blood!

There is still a gap in the evidence though I could do with finding answers to!  On the marriage certificate of the then Sarah Ann to Joseph Horrocks in 1917 she describes herself as a widow.  On Mabel's birth certificate who was born in 1911 she describes herself as Sarah Ann Horrocks even though she was not until 1917 and the "late Stevens" both of which indicate John had died by then which you could conclude John had died by that time thus allowing Joseph and Sarah Ann to marry.

However I have done a search to try and find John Stevens on BMD and I think I have found his birth in 1877 or 76 as a John Thomas Stevens which matches Violets birth certificate in Stourbridge but no one matches his death prior to 1917, Sarah Ann and John Stevens were marries in 1899.  In the 1901 census they were living together in the same house BUT by the 1911 census it appears he was in the Stourbridge Workhouse and there is a record of a John Stevens dieing in 1927 or 26 aged 51 in Stourbridge, he is the only one which matches the dates and close name that I can find.

I have done a rough search of divorces and can find no evidence of a divorce between Sarah Ann and John Stevens, though I believe finding divorce details is harder than BMD I believe.  I have ordered the birth and death certificates of John Stevens and see what information they tell.  But at the moment the evidence appears to indicate Sarah Ann ran up to Manchester from Stourbridge after John accident which caused him to be ill and end up been placed in the workhouse had Mabel out of wedlock with Joseph although she was calling herself Mrs Horrocks eventually got married to Joseph in 1917 even though John was still alive, in the workhouse out of site out of mind I suppose then John died alone on the workhouse in 1927! In short Sarah Ann could have been a bigamist!

If anyone has better access to divorce records or can find any other evidence of when John Stevens died be gratefull if you could share it.

Again thanks for all of your help.

[Maggie1895]

Hello All,
First of all Mabel's birth certificate states on it as mother "Sarah Ann Horrocks late Stevens formally Thomas"   
My grandmother Violets birth certificate states mother "Sarah Ann Stevens formerly Thomas" .

Michmoor, I'm glad you've managed to get so much further.   Can I clarify the notes above - one says 'formally Thomas' and I'm not sure in what sense the formal bit is meant, it implies that she is known for all legal matters as Sarah Thomas?  The other is 'formerly Thomas' which simply means she was known as, or has been, Sarah Thomas in the past.   Are the words on the two certificates spelled differently?    I know people giving information often make spelling errors (hence second thought) but those actually registering were normally pretty much on the ball.
The other thought is about John Stevens - I imagine you've also searched as Stephens, because if John's death was registered by an official at a hospital, workhouse etc they could easily have given a wrong spelling.
Thanks for letting us know how it's going   

[Michmoor]

It says on the certificate "Sarah Ann Horrocks late Stevens formerly Thomas"

Which indicates to me her previous husband died and was known before that as Thomas, but if someone disagrees please say so.

Whilst I agree those who wrote these certificates were generally correct mistakes could happen and have evidence here, on my grandmothers certificate the registrar wrote her name as Stephens but she was called Stevens and she signed her name on the certificate as Stevens.

On the information of John Stevens who is recorded as dieing in the workhouse in 1926 or 1927 there is no mention of a middle name of Thomas which is on the BMD information in 1876; however if he did die alone in the workhouse basically abandoned by his family would the person writing the death certificate necessarily know he had a middle name of Thomas?  When I get the copies of these certificates it may contain more details such as spouse and parents which will help.

[Michmoor]

And your right it is possible it could have been spelt Stephens by mistake I had not checked for that, better had!