Can anyone work this out?

[Cumbrian Pete]

Here are the various bits of information relating to James's two marriages and ten children:

There is a marriage bond for James Postlethwaite, 27, husbandman, and Ann Gibson, 21, both of Dalton-in-Furness, dated 6-May-1751.

James and Ann married 8-May-1851 at Dalton-in-Furness.

There is a marriage bond for James Postlethwaite, 40, farmer, and Elizabeth Postlethwaite, 23, both of Pennington, dated 8-Jul-1753.

In a LPRS publication, there is a marriage between John Postlethwaite and Elizabeth Postlethwaite on 8-Jul-1753 at Cartmel.

There are 2 Janes, daughter of James Postlethwaite, baptised at Dalton on 16-Feb-1752 and 16-Mar-1752 respectively.

James, son of James Postlethwaite of Lowfield House, baptised at Pennington 1-Jan-1754

Dorothy, dau of James Postlethwaite of Lowfield House, baptised at Pennington 1-Jan-1756

Betty, dau of James Postlethwaite of Lowfield House, baptised at Pennington 1-Jan-1758

Margaret, dau of James Postlethwaite of Lowfield House, baptised at Pennington 20-Apr-1760

Thomas, son of James Postlethwaite of Lowfield House, baptised at Pennington 13-Jun-1762

William, son of James Postlethwaite of Lowfield House, baptised at Pennington 6-Jan-1765

Henry, son of James & Elizabeth Postlethwaite, baptised at Pennington 26-Jul-1767, born 26-Jun-1767

Margaret, dau of James Postlethwaite of Lindale, baptised at Dalton 1-Jan-1773

John, son of James Postlethwaite of Lindale, baptised at Dalton 15-Sep-1776.

In the Whitehaven archives, there is an admission and surrender by James Postlethwaite of Lowfield House, Pennington and Elizabeth his wife, dated 28-Oct-1757.

In the Lowick records, there is a Dade baptism for Dorothy Sill, identifying Dorothy Postlethwaite's mother as being Ann Gibson, daughter of Edmund Gibson of Dalton.

There is a burial for an Anne Postlethwaite at Dalton on 26-May-1754

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There are several inconsistencies here:

The names on the marriage bond don't quite match the names on the marriage at Cartmel.  Given they are the same date, it seems likely to me that there is a typo in either the Cartmel transcription or original register.

The ages on the 2 marriage bonds are not consistent - with James ageing 13 years in 2.  My view on this is that ages on marriage bonds are often widely inaccurate, so both could be several years out here.

If the Cartmel marriage is the correct one, then it would seem likely that all but Jane would be children of James and Elizabeth.  This would contradict Dorothy Sill's Dade baptism.  I'm in difficulty here, as is it reasonable that Dorothy's grandmother was incorrectly identified?

I think the Anne Postlethwaite who died in Dalton in 1754 is not part of this family, as by then James is at Lowfield House.

Given the surrender information, I'm fairly sure that Betty onwards are children of Thomas and Elizabeth, but how about James and Dorothy?

Pete

[LizzieW]

Thank you for the detailed info Pete.

1. So James and Ann married in 1751

2. There was a marriage bond dated 8 July 1753 for James and Elizabeth.  From the info about marriage bonds below, that would suggest that Ann was no longer James' wife.  If it is James' first wife who was buried in 1754 where was she at the time of James and Elizabeth's bond and why did they feel sure enough of their legal status to accept the bond (or was James just important enough to be able to swear untruths?). 

3. If Dorothy P was the daughter of James and Ann nee Gibson perhaps she was born in 1754 (although not baptised until 1756) and her mother died in or soon after childbirth around 26 May 1754.  But if she was still alive until May 1754, how could James and Elizabeth marry in 1753?  Were there perhaps 2 James P, maybe cousins, so that the one who married Elizabeth was happy to take in his cousins children on the death of Ann.  Or, alternatively was James a bigamist, keeping two households until Ann died?

Got to go out now, so will try and think of other alternatives later.

Lizzie

The marriage bonds and allegations were the forms completed by the licence applicants.  Generally the prospective groom went with a relative or colleague, to apply to the officer presiding over the marriage licence court, or his surrogate.  The allegation was the application - an affidavit, or  statement made on oath,  that there was no legal impediment to the marriage, and that Canon Law was not being broken.  The marriage bond was a financial agreement to pay a certain sum of money if the allegation proved to be false.  The groom, or occasionally the bride, was required to stand surety - in other words was "bonded" for a fairly large sum of money, jointly with the relative or colleague.

[Cumbrian Pete]

I missed some information:  In James Postlethwaite's Will, he left money to his 7 out of 8 of his surviving children, but excluded the eldest, Jane.  He also stipulated that the 7 should pay a certain amount per year to support James's widow Elizabeth. 

If Dorothy were the daughter of Ann Gibson, would it be likely that her father would make her support her stepmother?  Isn't it more likely that all the surviving children of Elizabeth are treated equally?

Pete

[LizzieW]

If Dorothy was Elizabeth's child, why is there a Dade baptism for Dorothy Sill, identifying Dorothy Postlethwaite's mother as being Ann Gibson, daughter of Edmund Gibson of Dalton?

I have him with 10 children:
Jane
James (died - I don't know the date)
Dorothy
Betty (Elizabeth)
Margaret (died 1770)
Thomas
William
Henry
Margaret
John.

So, James and the first Margaret died before he made a will leaving 8 living children.  For some reason he left Jane out of his will.  Now that is a bit odd, no matter who her mother was.  Do you know anything about her - I guess she was married and her father felt she was already provided for, although why that should preclude her from supporting Elizabeth I don't know.  I assume Jane Postlethwaite, his daughter in law is James, his son's wife.  He leaves her a guinea, plus he gives money to James' daughter Ann, plus other grandchildren.  I assume they are children of Jane, Dorothy and/or Betty, as their surnames are not Postlethwaite.

I still think that if Ann was Dorothy's mother (and presumably James mother too), then they were both very young when their mother died and so only knew Elizabeth as their mother.  Hence the reason James wants them to help support her.  Even though the other children weren't married when he died, there was always the expectation that they would marry and have their own children.

Lizzie

[Cumbrian Pete]

Jane (James's eldest child) married William Bell of Newton, a husbandman.  I think she died in 1834 at Swarthmoor.  I thought at one time Jane may have been left out of her father's Will because she had been provided for my her maternal grandfather, Edmund Gibson, but I think he died much earlier in 1734.

I don't think there is time between the birth of Jane in early 1752 and James's second marriage in July 1753 for James and Dorothy to be born to Ann unless they were twins.  This seems unlikely though, given they were baptised on different dates.

I think the two likely scenarios are that

(1)  Dorothy was daughter of Ann, but Ann died soon after her birth, and Dorothy's baptism was forgotten about for several years.

or

(2)  The Dade baptism for Dorothy Sill is wrong.

Pete

[LizzieW]

If James and Elizabeth married on 8 July 1753 and James was baptised on 1 January 1754, then Elizabeth was already pregnant when she married, so we could assume that Ann was not around by say March 1753. 

James apparently married Ann on 6 May 1751 and Jane was baptised February or March 1752, it seems she was not around only a year later, so it's even possible that she died in childbirth.

I would think that

a.  The burial of an Anne Postlethwaite in 1754 is not her (unless the date has been transcribed wrongly), perhaps it should be 26 May 1752.

b.  The Dade baptism is wrong - or their were 2 James Postlethwaites, one marrying Ann Gibson and having a daughter called Dorothy, perhaps a twin of Jane and another one marrying Elizabeth and having 8 children, one of whom he called Dorothy. 

I'm glad my ancestor was born 9 years after the marriage of James and Elizabeth, so there can be no doubt who his parents are (in theory anyway).

Lizzie