Munster Fusiliers in France

[Mitch]

Hi,

I'm currently doing some research on the Munsters in France during the Great war and would like to hear from anyone who had a relative that served with the Royal Munster Fusiliers 2nd Bn.  I can also assist you if you need help finding more information on a relative that was killed during the war.  More specifically what I am after is any letters, diaries, medal records etc that you might have.  I am doing a PhD in this area and eventually hope to write a book about the Munsters during the Great War.  I also have access to the diaries of Fr Francis Gleeson, who served with the Munster's for several years.  He mentions how some men died and what they were doing at the time.  He also compiled Muster Rolls of the Munsters and these usually give an address. 

Thank you for taking time to read this posting.


Kind Regards,

Mitch

[Boreenatra]

Hi Mitch. Just read your posting and wonder if you have any info at all re RMF barracks in Tralee and the Tralee Military Cemetery in Killerisk. We have a relative buried there but can find very little information about him other than the fact he died before the Munsters left for various theatres of war. He was Pte. John Guerins and he died 23rd March 1915 at the Depot in Tralee aged 46. His service no. was 5189. I have posted a couple of questions on the forum, but your posting gave us some hope. I know this may be a little before the timescale you were talking about, but we would be interested in any info you might have or any links you might be able to provide.We've checked most of the sites but there is very little on soldiers who died at home. Any info greatly appreciated.Regards Steve

[Mitch]

Hi Steve,

John Guiern's left behind a wife, Bridget of Strand Street, Dungarvan.  You  can find details of this and the location of his grave on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission web site.  I do not have the address for this but you can type in cwgc in a Google search engine.  He is listed as Gueirn not Gueirn's.  Do you know if he joined the army before the First World War, if he did then it is possible that he saw action in Africa (although the Munsters were only there for several months).  Hope this helps.

Regards
Mitch.

[Boreenatra]

Dear Mitch. Thanks for your reply. If you check my original posting you will the find the correct spelling for John's name. Here is his stone in the Tralee Military Cemetery. By the way where did you get the different spelling from? His 1901 census return is listed as Guirn, but the death records of his children are listed as Gearn, simply because there are so many wasys to pronounce Guerins. He was awarded the Burma Medal in 1902, and his papers state when asked of any previous military enlistments state The Waterford Regiment with a service no. of 2429 and also a reference to the Leinster Regiment.Also ,although it may be post 1902 there is also a reference to Athlone Station RFRA 5714. These things we are still trying to work out. He doesn't make it easy for us because his family history is listed as being " vague " but we are trying to find any other details of his early life. Thru CWGC we tracked him down last year and went to Tralee and visited his grave there.Our questions are why was he buried in Tralee when he lived in Co. Waterford and secondly how did he die,(as he was in the Depot in Tralee it probably was a health issue) and thirdly was the regimental diary kept before the Munsters left for war.We know he was a Reservist and was called up again in 1914, but his military papers tantalisingly stop before his passing. We do know that if soldiers died " at home" i.e. not abroad in a theatre of war the next of kin had the option of having him returned to their home town, in his case Dungarvan,( at their own expense) or the army would bury them in the barracks town.My mother in law who is now 84 is John Guerins grand daughter so we can verify some of this stuff, but Jack as he was known at home appeared to a rover and probably was away more than he was at home.I do have some other personal stuff about him but if you could uncover anything from the regimental diary or any thing at Ballymullen we would be greatfull. Regards Steve

[Mitch]

Hi Steve,

Leave it with me and I will see what information I can find out.  I hope to be in London next month and will check this out if I have time.  I tried other sources but these proved to be futile.  Anyway let it with me for a little while and I will try and find out more.

Kind Regards,

Mitch.

[Boreenatra]

Mitch, thanks for the courtesy of your reply. and will wait to see if you can up with something. We hope to go back to Kew shortly but there is not enough hours in the day when you are there.!!! Regards Steve.

[tom1967]

Hello,

Here is what I know and maybe there is more help out there. My grandfather was in the 2nd. His service record was probably destroyed as I couldn't find it at Kew. I did find his medal index. He received the Mons Star, the British Medal and the Victory Medal. He enlisted on the 14th of August 1914 and was discharged as medically unfit on the 23rd of October 1916. He lived in a townhome (rowhouse?) that was built by the British government for Irish veterans in Kerry. My mother was born in the house. It appears that the occupants of the other homes were also veterans. My father has said that the one person that my grandfather spent a lot of time with was another veteran named Mickey Dugan or Duggan who had lost an arm and lived in one of the other homes.

My mother died two years ago so other than an aunt outside of London and two very distant cousins there are no other relatives. My aunt insisted that my grandfather was at Gallipoli with the 7th Munster Fusiliers and that he was wounded. Initially, she said that my grandmother received notification that he had been killed, but then he had been found alive in a trench. She has also insisted that he was in Flanders and at the Somme. Since he has the Mons Star I have to assume that he was in France or Belgium sometime before the 22/23 November 1914 which was a requirement for the medal.

The only other solid piece of information that I know is that he did not come to my parents wedding because my father's side of the family was heavily involved with the IRA.

So my questins are as follows. Could he have served in all the spots that my aunt claimed? The only plausible explanation would seem to be that he was wounded in France, recovered, was sent to Turkey, wounded again, returned to France and received another wound that rendered him unfit. Or, that he was in Europe the whole time and my aunt was mistaken.

I'm afraid that if I don't get this somewhat straightened out any knowledge about him and his service will evaporate since nobody else in my family really cares.

His name was John FitzMaurice and his regimental number was 4608.  Any help, advice or information would be wonderful. Any other information that I have I would gratefully share.

Thanks to all,

tom

[Mitch]

Hi Tom,

The 2nd Munster Fusiliers left for France as part of the BEF on the 12th of August 1914.  They arrived in France at Le Harve on the 13th of August and from there moved to Boue, east of Etreux and remained there until the 23rd Aug.  They were not involved in the initial retreat from Mons but were deployed in a rear guard action that lasted several days and saw the Battalion surrounded at Etreux and massacered by the advancing German army.  Indeed they did succeed in delaying the German advance and allowed other BEF Battalion's to escape south.  Now to answer your questions, I do not believe that your uncle was in Turkey for the simple reason that the 2nd Munsters fought in France also the fact that he signed up on August 14th 1914 is perhaps inaccurate as he more than likely would not have been involved in the Retreat from Mons thus attaining the Mons star.  It is more likely that he was part of the initial BEF and in the army before the war broke out. 

I cannot see how he could have ended up in Turkey if he was part of the 2nd Munsters.  The 1st Munsters were the Battalion in Turkey and they eventually did come back to France but were absorbed into the 2nd Munsters but this was not until some time in 1917.

However if your aunt is correct in saying that he was in the 7th Reserve Battalion then he would have fought in Gallipoli

7TH SERVICE BATTALION
This Battalion was also formed under Lieut.-Colonel H. Gore, and was a component of the 30th Brigade under Brigadier General L.L. Nicol.
This Brigade with the 29th and 31st Brigade's formed the 10th (Irish) Division under Lieut.-General Sir B.T. Mahon K.C.V.O., C.B., D.S.O. The Battalion was raised by Army Order 324 issued 21st August 1914   
BATTLE  ZONES
August 1915, to Gallipoli
August 1915, Suvla Bay, Scimitar Hill.
October 1915, Salonica, Kosturino, Struma.
September 1917, Egypt & Palestine, Gaza, Jerusalem, Tell Asur.
May 1918, France, absorbed by 6th Battalion RMF 6th November 1916.

The 2nd Munster timeline is as follows-

1914 -
August  - Fought a rearguard action at Etreux.
The action at Etreux became a classic example of the performance of a rearguard. The 2nd Battalion, not even up to full strength, held off a German attack force of superior numbers.
December - Ypres Salient offensive and the Festubert battle.
1915 -
May 9th - Rue du Bois battle. (also known as Aubers Ridge battle). The 2nd Munster's suffered many casualties on this day due to friendly artillery fire. The Battalion's "General Absolution", given by the Chaplain Father Francis Gleeson before battle, was captured in a painting by WW 1 illustrator Fortunino Matania.
June 30th - 1st Division was transferred to IV Corps, the Battalion proceeded to Vermelles
 September 25th - Loos sector battles.
1916 -
June  - The great raids on German lines at Lievin, 3 miles south of Loos.
July  - Commenced the attack on the village of Contalmaison.
September thru' December - Defense of Martinpuich and the Somme offensive.

I am not sure therefore which version of events is true.  If he signed up on August 14th 1914 then he was not at Mons.  But your aunt is correct in saying that the 7th Bn was in  turkey.

Incidently I have the diaries of Fr Francis Gleeson Chaplain to the 2nd Munsters in France 1914-1916.  I know for certain that when I was transcribing these I came accross a Fitzmaurice again I do not know it it is your relation but the reason I know this is that one of my friends is Fitzmaurice and they took a particular interest in this name when I pointed it out to them.  I will have another look and let you know in the coming days (that's if I can find it again)

KInd Regards

Mitch

[Dave Mc]

Mitch
I know its a bit old by now, but have you read the "Widows Penny" by Patrick J. McNamara. it's fantastic book about the limerick RMF soldiers who served during a number of campaigns, but primarily WW1 in europe.

My great grandfather, Sgt Daniel McCormack from Limerick had a very sad letter to his wife. He died at aubers ridge on May 9th 1915.

check out the attached link.

http://www.hamsoft.ie/book.asp

Regards

Dave Mc