John PHILPS & Cath. TURNER Ham by Kingston marriage

[Valda]

Hi

There is a John Phillips marriage to a Catherine Richards 16th December 1823 at St Mary Newington, Southwark (then Surrey now central London just south of the Thames) bachelor and spinster of the parish. Both signed making their mark. Witnesses were William Williams and Rebecca Mason. William Williams was a common witnesses in the parish register so probably the parish clerk. Possible first child baptised to the couple 23rd January 1825 at St Saviour Southwark born 13th December 1824. Samuel Phillips whose  family was of Queen Street and whose father's occupation  was labourer.

Newington in Southwark and Kingston upon Thames are about 12 miles apart. For an 1823 marriage for the couple to be of age and the register doesn't say minor for either, therefore if correct 21 or upwards a birth/baptism date would be circa 1802 or earlier. Sadly Southwark just south of the City of London across London bridge attracted people from across the country as a place of job opportunities and neither Phillips or Richards are unusual surnames.


Regards

Valda

[Janet Mc]

I don't think it can be this marriage because when the family migrated to NZ leaving 8 Jan 1841 on the "William Betinck" there is no mention of a Samuel and John and Catherine's ages are suggesting they were born about 1805 and 1803. Of course it is possible that Samuel died or even stayed behind if he was 18 and had started working. He isn't mentioned on the ship but there is a William Phillips 24 who might be a younger brother of John.

Phillips    William    24    Farm Labourer
Phillips    John    36    Labourer
   Catherine    38    
   Henry    14    Labourer
   Fanny    10    
   Emma    8    
   Jacob    6    
   Son    2
I cannot discover where the "Turner" name came from except Ancestry and Family Search -both of which are often inaccurate.
Thanks for any help.

[Valda]

Hi

I think the only way of confirming the maiden name of Catherine will be through New Zealand certificates and the death, possibly marriage certificates of her children. Have you found all her children's death registrations? Do any given further information about Catherine?

Regards

Valda

[Janet Mc]

I hadn't bought Catherine's death certificate because it was a few years before the date when they gave more complete information BUT perhaps a conscientious person recorded more. It's worth a try. There are various distant relatives working on this and so perhaps we can coordinate and thus not buy more than we need. Yes, perhaps children's marriage certificates might say more. I just have to find one married later than the 1871 date when more details were included.

If we could find the 'intention to marry' or marriage for John PHILPS (perhaps PHILLIPS) and Catherine - we might find a clue to the parents of both. I've seen on the internet two completely different sets of parents suggested for each.
Thanks for all your help.

[Janet Mc]

I wonder if John PHILPS was a brick maker. That is the profession that he went into first in NZ.

[Valda]

Hi

Unless any of the children married late or married for a second time you would expect their marriages to be to early to contain the information of their mother's surname, which was why I suggested any of their death certificates and only possibly their marriages.


Regards

Valda

[Janet Mc]

As of yesterday I've had a breakthrough in terms of this family although still can't find them even with all the new information.

John PHILPS was one of 4: (maybe more)

George - a new widower with one son in 1845 in Surrey
Henry
Jane who married Samuel Retter and migrated to NZ on same ship as John and Catherine.

The Retter's and JP had worked for  Tollemache brothers who owned Ham house and much land at Ham in Surrey. ‘English investors in company land often
encouraged their employees to emigrate. A.G. Tollemache, the proprietor of Ham
House in Surrey’, had purchased sections in Wellington and ‘n May 1841 the
Lord William Bentinck arrived’ with a group of families and single workers from
the estate.16 Of the seven sponsored male employees, three were single (Charles
Stent, William Smith and Charles Brown). The four married male labourers were
John Howell (with wife Ann and five children under 14), William Dew (with wife
Ann, seven children under 14 and a daughter of 15), Samuel Retter (wife Jane and
two children under 14) and John Philps (wife Catherine, four children under 14 and a son of 14).

They were involved with the New Zealand Land Company
from its beginnings. In 1840, the company announced that it had ‘Capital,
£100,000, in 4000 shares of £25 each, all paid up’ and listed 22 shareholders,
of whom the Hon. Frederick Jas. Tollemache, MP was one.90 Even before Port
Nicholson (Wellington) had been surveyed, land orders were sold; the drawing
of 100,000 acres of Wellington lots was held in London on 29 July 1839. The
Tollemache family purchased 48 of the 1100 Wellington balloted lots: Algernon
bought 33; Frederick 12; and three other Tollemaches one section each. Dudley
Sinclair, a nephew of the Tollemache brothers, bought nine.91 Sinclair immigrated
to Wellington in 1839, supported his uncles’ interests and was a contact between
the Tollemaches and their former employees.92

The mother of John and Jane was still alive in early 1845 because they sent her a letter to ‘Mrs Philp Malden Near
Sutton Surry Europe “Per Bella Marina”’. The Bella Marina berthed in London
on 26 January 1845. Jane’s letter to her mother was delivered to Malden bearing a
‘Ship Letter’ stamp, a Wellington post-mark and a British one showing its date of
arrival. It remained in the Philp family.

So it sounds like the father was dead.


I tried last night but haven't yet found the death/burial -name of Mrs Philps (need registers of Malden and surrounding areas).
Haven't yet found any christenings for the children but all likely to be nearby.

Jane was born c.1811 according to her death details.
John was c. 1805 and the other two I'm not sure of.

Any help gratefully and excitedly received.
Can't believe I still don't have a marriage date for John PHILPS and Catherine ?Turner c. 1825/6 in the area of Kingston/Richmond/Ham...

Regards,
Christine

[Valda]

Hi

GEORGE PHILP    
LYDIA DABBS    
11th October 1840 Merton, Surrey

The marriage certificate will confirm George's father's name and occupation.

Marriages Dec 1840 
DABBS Lydia Croydon    4   63   
Philp    George Croydon    4   63

Baptism 4th July 1841 St John Malden Surrey
John Philips parents George and Lydia, Malden, father's occupation labourer

Burial 16th April 1843 St John Malden
Lydia Philps aged 23, Malden

In the same register there is also this burial

14th May 1837
John Philps aged 65, Malden

The 1841 census HO107/75 which covers Malden is lost.

There is a John Philp born Malden Surrey aged 29 lodging on the 1871 census in Sutton Surrey. He was an unmarried porter on the railways. Still unmarried and boarding in Sutton on the 1891 census.

Possibly this family on the 1851 census

1851 HO107 1603 folio 417
No 5 ? Cottages Norbiton Surrey
George Phipps 33 Head Married Labourer Merton Surrey
Harriett Phipps 23 Wife Married Morden Surrey
John Phipps    10 Son Merton Surrey
Mary A Phipps    2 Daughter Merton Surrey
plus 1 visitor

1861 census RG9 418 folio 89
6 Kerrs Row Cheam Surrey
George Philps    43 Head Married Ag lab Malden Surrey
Harriett Philps    33 Wife Married Morden Surrey
Mary Ann Philps 12 Daughter Merton Surrey
William Philps    9 Son Kingston Surrey
Henry Philps    6 Son Kingston Surrey
Jane Philps    1 Daughter Morden Surrey

On the 1871 census in Merton George gave his birthplace as Merton -  RG10 855 folio 6. Harriet was a widow in Merton on the 1881 census - RG11 828 folio 58

There doesn't look to be a baptism for George in either Merton or Malden. Both have coverage on the IGI/Family Search

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountySurrey.htm#M

George's second marriage

Marriages Mar 1848 
Avery Harriet Kingston    4   203    
Philp    George Kingston    4   203


Regards

Valda

[Janet Mc]

Online contacts have now got me further back using the censes. We now know that John PHILPS was born in Petersfield, Hampshire. We've found all his siblings and his parents and the maternal grandparents. So far I'm stuck there.

The breakthrough came about by discovering an article on the interest called "The 7 servants of Ham" in which it was discovered that the Tollemarche family of Ham house sponsored and sent 7 men from their estate to Wellington. John PHILPS and family was one of the 7. His sister, Jane Retter was another. They sent 9 letters back to Surrey and through those I found the names of most of his siblings.

Here is what we've found so far.


John PHILP (1772-1837) of Sheet  and Jemima WALBRIDGE of Sheet ( 1770-1847) were married 24 Jun 1798 in Petersfield, Hampshire. Witnesses John Caplin (? a cousin or uncle?) and Hannah Saunders (JW's sister)

Their children all christened in St Peter's, Petersfield, Hampshire:
1) Jemima 5 April 1801 prob. Married William Digweed, 20 May 1819 in Froxfield, Hampshire
2) John chr. 17 Feb 1805
3) Henry 19 Jan/June 1808
4) Jane of 2 June 1811, married Samuel Joshua Chapman RETTER on 1 Jan 1826 in Cheam, Surrey and migrated with John on “William Betinck”, 1841 to NZ died in Wellington, 22 March 1900
5) Martha 29 August 1815, married James DABB on 26 Oct 1834 in Morden, Surrey. Died 1897 Blue House Cottages, Merton Road Mitcham Surrey and James in 1899.
6) George 6 Nov 1818 , married Lydia Dabbs 11 Oct 1840 in Merton, Surrey and they had a son, John chr. 4 July 1841 in Malden. Lydia died in 2nd Q 1843 (aged 23) and looks like George remarried a Harriet X, because in the 1861 censes they're living at Cheam with 4 children. This censes suggests that he was born at Malden and it seems that they probably did move there before 1818 because they talk about 'growing up in Malden'.
George died in the Croydon area of Surrey in 1st Q, 1880 (aged 62) and his wife in 4th Q, 1889 (also 62).

Thomas WALBRIDGE of Buriton married Elizabeth CAPLIN  of Sheet 13 September 1767 in Petersfield, Hampshire. The banns were read on 16/23/30 August and the witnesses were William Gammon and John Page.

Their children were  born in “Sheet' an small area linked with Petersfield: It had a population of only about 250 and less than 90 houses1
1) Hannah born 2 Feb 1768 and chr. 13 Mar 1768. 04 Dec 1789 John SAUNDERS of Petersfield   Hannah WALLBRIDGE of Petersfield   Bns William Bradly - George Newland
2) Jemima born 2 Jun 1779 and chr. 04 Jul 1770
3) Elizabeth born 14 May 1771 and chr. 29 May, married Robert Budd 27 Feb, 1791 in Petersfield, Children Elizabeth (1791), Mary Ann (1793), Robert (1795), Henry (1797)
4) Joseph born 22 May 1777 and christened 15 Jun Died 10 April 1798
5) John born 1 August 1782 and chr. 3 Sept. (or did he die in 10 Sept 1782) in Petersfield.

Looks like Thomas buried 29 May 1783 in Petersfield.2
Elizabeth buried at age 85 on 1 April, 1828 at Buriton.