NSW - John SMITH married Ann DUMVILLE - Why that name!!

[majm]

Hi All,

I agree with Wiggy, and note that from the Early Church Records held by NSW BDM and indexed online (as "CA"), there's around 109 marriages recorded for 1788 !!! with 101 showing the details of those marriages are recorded in the parish records for St Phillips.   There were also around 8 marriages recorded at Norfolk Island, for around 109 marriages in total.  Although I understand that in fact St Phillips was not formally established until 1802. 
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/Index/IndexingOrder.cgi/search?event=marriages

Also of interest could be Governor Lachlan Macquarie's general orders re establishing admin for recording Burials and Baptisms etc dating from Sept 1810  (See Sydney Gazette,  15 September 1810 etc) http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home

Also NSW State Records Office has lengthy articles and guides online re establishment and maintenance of these early records pre civil registration.  http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-2/marriages/marriages#colonial-secretary

It is my understanding though that Macquarie's regulations were observed more by their breach than by formal obedience   
BACK TO TOPIC THOUGH
Re marriage in 1836, the entry in the St Phillips parish records, may well be from the quarterly returns forwarded to St Phillips from an outlying church rather than from a ceremony conducted within the St Phillips building itself.  It would be sensible to check further to see if Rev William Cowper actually conducted the service, or if it is simply the "transmitted" record that he has entered in the St Phillips register.   For example, from my own tree, I have forebears who were baptised at the Macquarie Street Chapel for the Wesleyans,  and in accordance with Gov Macquarie's 1810 regulations, Rev Horton then transmitted his quarterly return to Rev Cowper who in turn entered that event in St Phillips records too (ie there's in fact three entries within the online NSW BDM records for that one event  from 1827, ) ....


Cheers,  JM 

You probably won't find St Phillip's parish records online because they were given to the Reg General and are 'findable' on the V series films.  St. Phillips (in case you didn't know) was the first C/E church in Australia, original built c1820, rebuilt 1856 - nice pic as it is today, on http://www.sydneyarchitecture.com/ROC/ROC21.htm

There were much earlier registrations for St Phillips though - presumable at a much older more primitive building.  (Just for interest)

Wiggy

[majm]

Hi there,

Following from Debra's reply # 6, and the initial question re John Smith 

He was a convict (don't know which transportation ship he was on; nor why he was transported - but would be interested to find out).

The John Smith whose ticket of leave places him  at Carcoar (NSW) was tried at Norfolk Quarter Sessions.
The John Smith whose ticket of leave places him at Liverpool and Paterson (NSW) was tried at Wiltshire Assizes.

The one tried at the Wiltshire Assizes received his NSW Tickets of Leave from the Liverpool Police Magistrate's Bench. 

ONE of those chaps received a Colonial Pardon on 1 July 1842, however the index does NOT indicate which of the two chaps named John Smith who arrived on the transport ship Sesostris in 1826 received that Colonial Pardon.  A copy of the Colonial Pardon should give you a good description of the person, the ship's name, the trial place etc   and should help to sort out which chap was your John Smith    (There's a John and Mary SMITH in my tree, such popular names, patience and determination and open mind needed to sort through and find needle in the haystack!)


Cheers,  JM

[Billyblue]

Hi Alan T et al
I had a look at the film for 1836 today at QFHS library.  Here's a transcript:

Marriage solemnized in the Parish of St. Philip's, Sydney
John Smith of this parish, a labourer, a bachelor and Ann Dumville of this parish, a Spinster were married in this church by Banns with consent of Government on This day 31st October 1836 by William Cowper.
John Smith signed and Ann Dumville made her X mark.
Witnesses John Crane (signed) and Rebecca Crane (X mark), both of Sydney

Interestingly, in the same volume I found the marriage of Rev William Cowper himself, and the very first entry in that volume was for one of my Blue family!

Dawn M.

[Billyblue]

Also, I note from NSW BDM online that there are 20+ births to John and Ann Smith 1836-1856 but unfortunately it doesn't give a location for any of them so you would need to look at each one.
Don't know when I'll be at our library again (I live 35km across town so don't go unless I can get a full day spare)
Dawn M

[alan_t]

Thanks very much for all the help given. Much appreciated.

I hate to sound thick, but I'm a little confused about the convict ship index highlighted. I went on to the NSW records online and put the name John Smith in, but 6 records came up for the Sesostris.  Can anybody tell me how to read this? I'm trying to fathom how the six database returns equate to just 2 people.  I'm assuming that the 'Year' column is the year that the ship sailed to Oz.  Not at all sure what the column 'Date' signifies - arrival in Oz, maybe?  Does this mean there was more than one sailing of the Sesostris in 1836? 

Does anyone have any idea how I should proceed  from here for Ann and John's children?  I checked the NSW online census records, but there are no women (Ann Smith) to search on.  There are a few John Smiths, but there are very few women listed. 

I did check the name John Crane (witness to John and Ann's marriage - thanks Dawn!). The name is listed on the 1841 census as being in residence in Parish Castle Hill, District Parramatta.  Would this help, or is it a real long shot, I wonder. The server's now down so I'll have to wait a little while to check this.

Thanks all.
Alan


 

[Billyblue]

In 1841 it would be at least a day's journey from Sydney to Parramatta / Castle Hill
Not sure what '1841 census' you mean?  I see Jaunay lists part of an 1841 census but it's for Illawarra district which would not include Castle Hill/Parramatta.
Dawn M.

[Aussie1947]

Hi,

Just a snippet.

NSW Government Gazette March 17th 1834, p165.

LIST OF RUNAWAYS APREHENDED DURING THE WEEK
Dumville Phoebe, Roslyn Castle, from Thomas Cadel.

Gerry

[Dundee]

Hi Alan,

The six records are 3 for Tickets of Leave and 3 for Ticket of Leave Passports.

A ticket of leave allowed convicts to work for themselves on condition that they remained in a specified area, reported regularly to local authorities and if at all possible, attend divine worship every Sunday.

Ticket of leave passports allowed convicts holding tickets of leave to travel between certain points, visit a certain place or to attend the city markets for a specified period of time.

I believe all are for the John who was tried at Wiltshire, except the last ticket of leave which was for the John tried at Norfolk.

The year column is the year of the ship's arrival (essential for them to keep track of all the John SMITHs!!)
The date column is the date the ticket of leave/passport was issued to the convict.
The "No" column is the reference number of the ticket and always consists of two numbers - the last two digits of the year it was issued, and the actual ticket number.  For example 36/041 is a ticket issued in 1836, and the ticket number is 041.  

As you can imagine, with thousands of convicts, many with the same name, there had to be a system for keeping track of everyone.  You will find that your convict was always recorded with their year of arrival, ship name, and often trial date and place.  Many of the ships made multiple trips to Australia, and there were many different ships with the same name.  When this happens you will see a ship named as, for example, Mary Ann I (3), which is the first vessel named Mary Ann on it's third voyage.  I don't know how the convict administrators managed all this without loads of coffee and Panadol - rum maybe?  

Convict records, including tickets of leave are free to search on Ancestry until 31 January http://www.ancestry.com.au/

The 1841 census for NSW only records heads of households by name (which is why there are only a few women), and only provide age span, sex, free or convict status for others in the household.  As both Johns were still convicts they would not be recorded by name.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0bit/

They do both appear on the 1828 census, one at Hyde Park Barracks in Sydney, and the other is assigned to Charles WHALEN  at Prospect.  A bit of trivia - it was this Charles WHALEN's two sons who were the first Europeans to find and enter the Jenolan Caves. (apart from possibly a few bushrangers)

Just taking a couple of sentences from JM's post and adding to them:

The John Smith whose ticket of leave places him  at Carcoar (NSW) was tried at Norfolk Quarter Sessions.
Tried: 12 or 20 July 1825 Norwich Quarter sessions (Life)
1853 Recommended for a Conditional Pardon

The John Smith whose ticket of leave places him at Liverpool and Paterson (NSW) was tried at Wiltshire Assizes.
Tried: 16 July 1825 Wiltshire Assizes - Robbery (Life)
Native Place: Salisbury, Wiltshire
Born: 1808
1 July 1842 Conditional Pardon

The microfiche indexes for NSW give baptism area codes (I don't know why they didn't bother to put them online) and I will check this out for you tomorrow - not sure if it will help though.  It is very difficult to trace anyone forward in time (which is why we go backwards), let alone someone named SMITH!

Debra   

[alan_t]

Hi Debra

I think you may have just made my day! Not only for the clear and concise explanation of terms, but also because according to a previous post of yours, the permission for John Smith to marry was in 1836 when he was 28 years old.  That means that he must have been born around 1808.  Assuming that the first John Smith was not born in 1808 (I would obviously need to find this out to be sure), then our John Smith must be the one tried at Wiltshire Assizes for robbery!  All of this deduction is like sudoku!

Thank you very much.  I'm going to see when this info takes me next.

I also hope that you are in a position to check the baptism info tomorrow.

Thank you, thank you.
Alan