Author Topic: Greensleeves Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In  (Read 27477 times)

Offline toni*

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Re: Greensleeves Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
« Reply #126 on: Tuesday 11 January 11 10:22 GMT (UK) »

Some good questions there PM, GS hope we’ve manage to help in some way as I can’t access the PR’s I will move on to the next hunt but if you need help just shout
Holman & Vinton- Cornwall, Wojciechowskyj & Hussak- Bukowiec & Zahutyn, Bentley & Richards- Leicester, Taylor-Kent/Sussex  Punnett-Sussex,  Bear/e- Monkleigh Gazey-Warwicks

UK Census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchive

Offline Greensleeves

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Re: Greensleeves Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
« Reply #127 on: Tuesday 11 January 11 13:56 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for all your help everyone - I seem to have gathered up so much information and it is really interesting going through it all.

PM - regarding your last post, I don't know who the witnesses were to Robert Jnr's second marriage, though I think I will have to find out!  It took place in Billingham, so I will have to turn my attentions in that direction.

As far as the possible first marriage for Alice Laws, I have checked through the Durham records and can't find any entries for children of that marriage.  I am also wondering, if this was her, what she was doing in the intervening period as William Laws died in 1776 and Alice married Robert Jnr in 1785.  I am continuing to search for clues!
Suffolk: Pearl(e),  Garnham, Southgate, Blo(o)mfield,Grimwood/Grimwade,Josselyn/Gosling
Durham/Yorkshire: Sedgwick/Sidgwick, Shadforth
Ireland: Davis
Norway: Torreson/Torsen/Torrison
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Pastmagic

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Re: Greensleeves Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
« Reply #128 on: Tuesday 11 January 11 15:52 GMT (UK) »
Hi Greensleeves,

It has been very interesting and I learned a lot from it. I do think a direct approach to St. Hilda's might be of use, as you are a descendant of Robert Snr, if I remember correctly, - one of their own! in the absence of Durham folk doing look ups in the key archives, I think you may have to get thee to Durham yourself!

On the Church/Legal side of things, this is very peculiar. The usual law in force at the time makes Robert the legal father, irrespective of biology. I think there may have been a case made against Alice in a one of the local courts either before or after the birth, to allow for William to be acknowledged as illegitimate, if not legally so. Otherwise the thing could be conveniently hushed up by the deaths.

 This is why I think records must have been made, and hopefully might have survived. I also wonder if Alice had money herself or the prospect of some, and her family were implicated in ousting baby William? Or the real father, or his family spilled the beans - unlikely, unless there was an infuriated wife about.

 Naming the baby William is interesting too, as the Shadforth's seem big on Robert son of Robert.
 What I am saying is that the Shadforth's may not be the only players here, or the villians either.

 As the more scholarly stuff I posted here says, courts  of this period seemed to take the view that marriage made every child of the marriage the legal father responsiblie as  for upkeep, and a potential  inheritor as well.  The wording of the baptism  seems to indicate that Robert is still in the father picture in some way.

 Perhaps this was to stop a penny of Shadford dosh going indirectly, via a healthy William, to the family of the real Father? The speedy remarriage seems to say there were other agendas around as well. Sometimes, in these situations almighty and unintended  muddles result, and things get made public that might not otherwise be known.

 Shall be interested to see where the Coulston Burrell stuff takes you. regards, PM

Burrel, Robert, bur. 28 Nov 1784, Age 35yr, [DO] from the internment.org data above. Could he be a younger brother of Alice Burrell?


As Durham has exceptionally good records, no harm in e-mailing the lot - and the Vicar of St. Hilda,s about exactly what has survived. Otherwise, you might be there for weeks!


Offline Greensleeves

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Re: Greensleeves Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
« Reply #129 on: Tuesday 11 January 11 19:04 GMT (UK) »
Thank you so  much, PM, for your considerable help with this.  I think I might pluck up my courage and approach the current priest direct (you gave me his address some time ago).  As you say, I do have direct links with the church..... and they can only say no!

I have found an indication that Robert Jnr might not be the eldest son - there might have been a Thomas Shadforth who was older.  I have no other info about him but I think I will have to winkle him out and see what he has to say for himself....  There have been suggestions in this thread that baby William might have been the child of another Shadforth which would account for the putative father not being named.  I have seen elsewhere records stating something like  "XY, illegitimate son of Joe Y  and Ann W, wife of Fred W".  So I think I might amuse myself by treading that path for a short while just to satisfy myself that no stone remains unturned!

As you say, I need to get up to Durham to check all this out.  Nice excuse for a trip once the weather improves - and possibly a trip to York and Whitby at the same time, just for the fun of it!
Suffolk: Pearl(e),  Garnham, Southgate, Blo(o)mfield,Grimwood/Grimwade,Josselyn/Gosling
Durham/Yorkshire: Sedgwick/Sidgwick, Shadforth
Ireland: Davis
Norway: Torreson/Torsen/Torrison
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline Pastmagic

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Re: Greensleeves Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
« Reply #130 on: Tuesday 11 January 11 19:26 GMT (UK) »
looking at some of the Church Court Abstracts of the time, this gives you an idea that people took adultery etc very serioulsy:


Reference: DDR/EJ/CCD/3/1787/2
Dates of creation: 1787
Extent: 1 folder, 17 ff. plaintiff: Barnabas Fenwick of Ryton, County Durham, esq
defendant: Frances Aislabie of Ryton, County Durham, wife of Samuel Aislabie
defamation - adultery/fornication
proctor: Robert Burrell  - prosecuting
Documents - citations, libel, interrogatories and depositions

this probably means this Robert was a Proctor of the church court - a lot of Birrell's about in the Diocesan files......

Gowland v Wright

Reference: DDR/EJ/CCD/3/1787/3
Dates of creation: 1787-1788
Extent: 1 folder, 14 ff. plaintiff: Margaret Gowland of Bishopwearmouth, County Durham, spinster
defendant: John Wright of Bishopwearmouth, County Durham, yeoman
defamation - whoredom
proctor: George Wood - prosecuting
Documents - citation, libel, interrogatories, depositions, allegation and bill of costs


looking through these very interesting abstracts, looks like Durham Diocese had a view on these matters that had not changed sine the 13th century:

Was unidentified161r-v   14 January 1413
Mandate by the official of the archdeacon of Durham to the parochial chaplain of the collegiate church of Darlington, to declare in that church the sentence of excommunication pronounced by the official of the archidiaconal jurisdiction of the prior of Durham, against Margaret, a resident of the parish of Darlington, lately concubine of John Barbour of the parish of St Margaret, Durham, for her repeated contumacy, and to summon her to appear before the prior's official on Wednesday [1 Feb. 1413] in the church of St Oswald by Durham, to receive correction concerning alleged adultery and fornication.
Dated: Durham

Anyway, lots of interest, no data.....

Offline Greensleeves

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Re: Greensleeves Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
« Reply #131 on: Tuesday 11 January 11 22:23 GMT (UK) »
Goodness, doesn't that all sound incredibly archaic now - although I know here in Wales there are records of women being whipped for having illegitimate children.  So clearly if Alice had fallen from grace, it would certainly have meant she would be given a hard time.

Regarding Thomas Shadforth, the elder brother, he was baptised 9 March 1756, but there are neither marriage nor burial records from him, so perhaps he left the area.  In fact, I can find nothing about him whatsoever so I've drawn a blank with him before I even started.
Suffolk: Pearl(e),  Garnham, Southgate, Blo(o)mfield,Grimwood/Grimwade,Josselyn/Gosling
Durham/Yorkshire: Sedgwick/Sidgwick, Shadforth
Ireland: Davis
Norway: Torreson/Torsen/Torrison
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Trees

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Re: Greensleeves Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
« Reply #132 on: Tuesday 11 January 11 22:54 GMT (UK) »
this was how one of the people on my tree recieved "justice"
see Rough ride for the county's sinners here
http://www.oxfordtimes.co.uk/leisureold/pasttimes/1261264.rough_ride_for_the_countys_sinners/
It was his innocent wife I felt sorry for
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Offline Tephra

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Re: Greensleeves Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
« Reply #133 on: Tuesday 11 January 11 23:18 GMT (UK) »



"....................................did I gather that disapproval of an unmarried girl who had got herself pregnant was being expressed."

Ooooooooh how I detest that phrase..... what did they think she'd done......... immaculate conception!!!

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Offline toni*

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Re: Greensleeves Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
« Reply #134 on: Wednesday 12 January 11 13:13 GMT (UK) »
if there was a [legal] case it would be in the manorial records

i know TNA have chancery court records back to the 1400's in some cases but i dont think this is a matter for them

on the matter of fornication i read in the paper yesterday there was a Russian lady who was to marry an African man in the UK the supposed purpose was for him to gain stay in the UK, it was brought to court becasue the Border Agency employee (or whoever deals with this sort of stuff) visited the house the day before marriage and found the Russian lady in bed with another man !
Holman & Vinton- Cornwall, Wojciechowskyj & Hussak- Bukowiec & Zahutyn, Bentley & Richards- Leicester, Taylor-Kent/Sussex  Punnett-Sussex,  Bear/e- Monkleigh Gazey-Warwicks

UK Census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchive