Author Topic: Greensleeves Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In  (Read 27474 times)

Offline Pastmagic

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Re: Greensleeves Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
« Reply #108 on: Sunday 09 January 11 11:26 GMT (UK) »
Here is a good article about English Bastardy. What it lacks is any reference to the idea that a woman could legally have a bastard within wedlock, but does indicate the local parish and  church court records are your best bet:

https://wiki.familysearch.org/en/Illegitimacy_in_England

However, I found a record of a similar situation:

http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/famhist/genealgy/illegit.htm.

Includes the idea that the child reverts back to the father at age 7 by law, if the father is paying for upkeep - new to me.

Robt Brew writes his second son for his tenancy upon certificate of the Episcopal Register that Jane Moore the sd Robts wife owns the eldest son to be an illegitimate child and the person accused make penance whereby it debars the eldest son to make title of inheritance to the Premises.

This article has fascinating stuff about parishes.

Another, more scholarly one, which addresses some of the issues raised in this thread:

From: Peter Laslett, Karla Oosterveen and Richard M.Smith (eds.), Bastardy and its Comparative
History (Arnold, 1980)

"Overall, the impression is that bastardy was treated by the church courts as the logical outcome of,
and morally equivalent to, fornication. Only a detailed comparison of sources, for instance to see
whether bastards registered in the parish registers were also presented at the ecclesiastical court,
will begin to tell us what happened in practice.
There are many other difficult points of law and definition to decide in relation to
bastardy. If a couple married and it was subsequently discovered that the marriage had to be
annulled because of some bar, precontract or affinity, for example, were their offspring
illegitimate? The position seems to have been that both by canon and common law, as long as they
had a full church wedding, and it could be shown that at least one of the partners could be proved to
have been in ignorance of the obstacle to marriage, then the children were still legitimate though
the parents were not really married. (15) These were known as 'putative' marriages.
Again, if the husband had been absent from his wife for a number of years, and she
had a child in his absence, was it a bastard? According to Coke, as long as the father was alive and
in England, the child was his and legitimate (Burn, I, p. 110). Or, what was the position of a woman
impregnated by one man who then proceeded to marry another man and the child was born after the
wedding to the latter? It was apparently believed that the child was legitimate and must be accepted
as his by the man who married the pregnant woman. "

 from:http://www.alanmacfarlane.com/TEXTS/BASTARDY.PDF


Offline Pastmagic

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Re: Greensleeves Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
« Reply #109 on: Sunday 09 January 11 11:49 GMT (UK) »
 Greensleeves, I am sure you have this already, but in case anyone else like myself was not aware of it:

Durham University:

 http://familyrecords.dur.ac.uk/

Seem to be very Family History friendly:

"Before your visit, if you have internet access, much preparatory exploration of our collections can be usefully done online (see below). Alternatively, email enquiries can be made to pg.library@durham.ac.uk, or by calling 0191 334 2972, or writing to Special Collections, Palace Green Library, Palace Green, Durham, DH1 3RN."

From a quick scan of that page, it seems likely that you may find useful stuff about St. Hilda's and the Shadforths. Also if, as I suspect they had guild connections as weavers.

Wonder if there is anyone in Durham free to do some sleuthing for you? Is there still a tombstone with Alice and William?

PM


Offline Greensleeves

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Re: Greensleeves Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
« Reply #110 on: Sunday 09 January 11 13:56 GMT (UK) »
Sorry I've been absent - internet went down so have spent last 24 hours in limbo....... fortunately we now seem to be restored.  Will read back and reply later.  Many thanks for your continued input - links and illustrations look good.  Hartlepool must have been an impressive-looking place.  I used to visit when I was a child, crossing from Middlesbrough on the transporter bridge.

GS
Suffolk: Pearl(e),  Garnham, Southgate, Blo(o)mfield,Grimwood/Grimwade,Josselyn/Gosling
Durham/Yorkshire: Sedgwick/Sidgwick, Shadforth
Ireland: Davis
Norway: Torreson/Torsen/Torrison
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline deb usa

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Re: Greensleeves Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
« Reply #111 on: Sunday 09 January 11 16:38 GMT (UK) »
hi GS

Have just been Googling and found this entry:
JOSEPH PACE married MARY ROWNTREE
on 2nd Feb 1792
at St Hilda's Church Hartlepool
WITNESSES
CUTHBERT COULSON
and ROBERT SHADFORTH).


I'm wondering if that was their 'job' to act as witnesses.

deb
Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton,  Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans


All UK census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline osprey

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Re: Greensleeves Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
« Reply #112 on: Sunday 09 January 11 17:48 GMT (UK) »
certainly I've noticed my ancestors who were parish clerks turning up as witnesses at a fair few weddings. One of them looks to have signed as witness at over 200 in a 20 year period. I have another who was parish clerk for 45 years. I'm not planning on counting all those...

 ::)
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline Trees

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Re: Greensleeves Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
« Reply #113 on: Sunday 09 January 11 19:56 GMT (UK) »
As the clerk assisted the priest with all services he was usually on hand to witness the marriages and it looked good it=f you had a witness who could actually sign his name.
How far back have you found the Shadforths in the area? Often the position of Parish Clerk passed from father to son in Yarton I have 5 generations of Parish Clerks. And in Hampton Poyle the office has passed from brother to brother to brother in law it shows that the family were educated and respected in the community
H.
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

For details of my research interests please see
mcmullin.me.uk
Also read the children a story from Story Time at the same web site.

Offline Pastmagic

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Re: Greensleeves Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
« Reply #114 on: Sunday 09 January 11 20:20 GMT (UK) »
Is not technology wonderful:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/podcasts/parish-admin-records.htm

Gives a Podcast no less, on how parishes worked in those days....

I do hope the overseers or someone wrote down the whole affair....

From what I have been reading, it gets curiouser and curiouser....Trying to think of an economic reason - are we certain that Robert had no other children before or after William?

Are these the records?

Ref. No:   EP/SS.SH
Catalogue Title:   South Shields St. Hilda Parish
Category:   Ecclesiastical Parish Records
Size (kB):   266
Type:   Catalogue

In the Durham record office. This is a huge catalogue, very difficult to sift through, but it looks like they have the original BMD registers and a lot of minute books etc. Example:

EP/SS.SH 5/5
Church Cess Book, 1760 - 12 April 1784
(1 volume, paper)

Ref No. EP/SS.SH 5/6
Church Cess Book for panns, docks, glass-houses and tenements, Easter 1782 - Easter 1788. Minutes of Vestry Meetings at which churchwardens were elected, 21 April 1783 - 26 March 1788. Offertory Accounts, 5 August 1787 - 7 July 1788. Index at the back of the volume
(1 volume, paper)

Ref No. EP/SS.SH 5/7
Church Cess Book for panns, docks, glass- houses and tenements, Easter 1787 - Easter 1792, and for all lands in the townships of South Shields, Westoe and Harton, Easter 1790 - Easter 1793. Churchwardens' Accounts, 1788 - 1792. Vestry Minutes, 6 April 1790 - 1 April 1794. Includes also lists of names of vestrymen, 1791 (p.116), 1793 (p. 197); details of fees for ringing the church bells (p. 117); list of churchwardens, 1787 - 1798 (p. 164); terms of employment of the church bell-ringers, 20 March 1791 (p. 169). Among those matters discussed at the last Vestry Meeting (p. 197) was the payment of subscriptions towards the parish Fire Engines. For index to volume, see inside front page, 1787 - 1792

Even if the William/Alice/Robert/Margaret affair is not recorded, there might be interesting items to do with the rest of the family...PM

http://www.everychildmattersincountydurham.org/recordoffice/register.nsf/7da41db46fbaf08880256ff80053d88c/ab1502e76b5c0bb780256938004864e1?OpenDocument

Later -OOPS is this the wrong parish -  are their two different St. Hilda's? Hartlepool? South Shields brain confusion on my part.





Offline marymog

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Re: Greensleeves Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
« Reply #116 on: Monday 10 January 11 09:25 GMT (UK) »
Dunno if this helps, its the same situation, but a different part of the country, with different wording

all the children (four of em)went on with the surname of the Husband of the mother who gave birth.None of the 4 children became Langleys.

Anne KING bp. 22 Jan 1705 The vicar has written in the register 'The third bastard child of Valentine Langley and John King's wife'

One of the children must have died, one called ann born 1703, I wonder how they worded her burial
would they have put Ann King Illegitimate child of John King and Ann his wife


mm