Author Topic: Help needed finding a needle in a haystack.  (Read 12652 times)

Offline Braindead

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Help needed finding a needle in a haystack.
« on: Saturday 25 December 10 15:12 GMT (UK) »
I wasn't sure whether to post this here, or in the London Board, or somewhere else, so if a moderator thinks it would be better in another forum, please move it.

I'm trying to find out about my great grandmother's family. I have quite a lot, but I'd like even more, and it is quite a saga, so here goes...

... Rose Tatiana de Bartholomey (my great grandmother, we always knew her as Tatiana) was born on the 7th december 1877 (info from death index). I don't know where, but in census returns, passenger lists etc she gives London as her place of birth. I can't find any matching entry in the births index though, and obviously I'd like to find out so I can get the birth certificate...

...her father was Count Michail Fedorovich de Bartholomey, who was Councillor to the Russian Embassy in London between 1870 and 1880 (this ties in with London being place of birth). He then went on to become Russian Ambassador in Washington, and a list of staff at the Russian legation there in 1880 lists his wife as Frances Mary Bartholomey. It has always been assumed in the family that she was Scottish, and was a daughter of the Duke of Hamilton...

...Tatiana had an elder sister, Hélène Marguerite De Bartholemey, also apparently born in London, c.1875. In Hélène's marriage banns (in Paris!), her mother's name is given as Marie Broadwood Tormaly Hamilton...

...The Count's marriage failed and Tatiana & Hélène were packed off to a convent, first in Paris & then on the Isle of Wight - Tatiana & Hélène can be found there in the 1891 census, though the transcription on Ancestry leaves a lot to be desired - my great grandmother is listed as "Rola Bartholoma", which highlights one of the problems I've had - how the name is spelt. I have seen it variously with or without the "de", and spelt Bartholomey, Batholomei or Bartholoma...

...The same arises with Tatiana's father - I've seen both Michel and Michail. He remarried & died in Surrey on 31st July 1895, aged 58. (Info from death indexes and Probate register). Tatiana married my great grandfather, Redmond Barton Cafferata, in London in Oct/Nov/Dec 1901 in Kensington...

What I'd really like to know is:

1. Where was Tatiana born? Is it in the BMD indexes? Is there a birth certificate?

2. Were Michel de Bartholomey and Frances Mary married in London? If so, Is it in the BMD indexes? Is there a marriage certificate?

3. Any further light you can shed, including Hélène's exact place of birth.

Many thanks in advance, and Merry Christmas to you all.
"Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk"

Offline Tati

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Re: Help needed finding a needle in a haystack.
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 25 December 10 16:07 GMT (UK) »
Hi Braindead,

Have you seen this marriage?

Jun 1879 Kensington 1a 314
Michael Bartholomei or Bartholonei to possibly Frances Mary Broadwood

That's after the girls' births ...  ???
 "My dear, I think the English pronounce it 'appiness"  

I'm afraid of no ghost

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Tati

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Re: Help needed finding a needle in a haystack.
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 25 December 10 16:09 GMT (UK) »
Ha! How do you like this? A year earlier than you thought though:

Birth Rosa Tatlina B Broadwood
Mar 1877 Marylebone 1a 572

Also:
Helen Margaret Broadwood
Dec 1874 Marylebone 1a 586
 "My dear, I think the English pronounce it 'appiness"  

I'm afraid of no ghost

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline junev

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Re: Help needed finding a needle in a haystack.
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 25 December 10 16:10 GMT (UK) »
Hi

Just found that and when you check the image it is Rose Tatiana

Junev


Offline Annie65115

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Re: Help needed finding a needle in a haystack.
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 25 December 10 16:22 GMT (UK) »
Here is the geneology of the Dukes of Hamilton; I can't see any daughters by the name of Frances Mary or Marie in the appropriate timescale (though I dare say there may have been illegitimate offspring!)

http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/online/content/Hamilton1643.htm

Have you seen this? Rose is pictured and mentioned on this (French!) site though it doesn't help much with your queries!

http://www.forum-auto.com/marques/jaguar/sujet986.htm

I am no further on with your specific queries though!

Bradbury (Sedgeley, Bilston, Warrington)
Cooper (Sedgeley, Bilston)
Kilner/Kilmer (Leic, Notts)
Greenfield (Liverpool)
Holyland (Anywhere and everywhere, also Holiland Holliland Hollyland)
Pryce/Price (Welshpool, Liverpool)
Rawson (Leicester)
Upton (Desford, Leics)
Partrick (Vera and George, Leicester)
Marshall (Westmorland, Cheshire/Leicester)

Offline Tati

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Re: Help needed finding a needle in a haystack.
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 25 December 10 16:33 GMT (UK) »
I am no further on with your specific queries though!
I think I answered them anyway  :D
 "My dear, I think the English pronounce it 'appiness"  

I'm afraid of no ghost

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Annie65115

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Re: Help needed finding a needle in a haystack.
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 25 December 10 16:37 GMT (UK) »
yes, Tati, you got in there whilst I was dredging up my schoolgirl French!
Bradbury (Sedgeley, Bilston, Warrington)
Cooper (Sedgeley, Bilston)
Kilner/Kilmer (Leic, Notts)
Greenfield (Liverpool)
Holyland (Anywhere and everywhere, also Holiland Holliland Hollyland)
Pryce/Price (Welshpool, Liverpool)
Rawson (Leicester)
Upton (Desford, Leics)
Partrick (Vera and George, Leicester)
Marshall (Westmorland, Cheshire/Leicester)

Offline Tati

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Re: Help needed finding a needle in a haystack.
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 25 December 10 16:45 GMT (UK) »
The chap on the French site seems to be a fan of Redmond, how great is that!  8)

 
 "My dear, I think the English pronounce it 'appiness"  

I'm afraid of no ghost

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Annie65115

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Re: Help needed finding a needle in a haystack.
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 25 December 10 16:49 GMT (UK) »
Now this looks potentially interesting, given the Hamilton "connection"

1861 census:

Chas Hamilton Broadwood age 36, b Crawley, Sussex, occ. late ?? to Her Majesty
Mary Louisa Broadwood, wife, age 25, b Inverness

living at 2, Nw Bond St, Westminster St James


According to BMD, Charles Hamilton Broadwood d q4 1872 in Steyning.
Bradbury (Sedgeley, Bilston, Warrington)
Cooper (Sedgeley, Bilston)
Kilner/Kilmer (Leic, Notts)
Greenfield (Liverpool)
Holyland (Anywhere and everywhere, also Holiland Holliland Hollyland)
Pryce/Price (Welshpool, Liverpool)
Rawson (Leicester)
Upton (Desford, Leics)
Partrick (Vera and George, Leicester)
Marshall (Westmorland, Cheshire/Leicester)