The Child Who Died in the Fire (surname GOOCH)

[Spidermonkey]

The 1911 census has Ethel and Charles up in Liverpool (niece and nephew of James and Theresa Mason) which explains the Liverpool connection and also firmly puts Charles as an adult.

Therefore, if it wasn't Lilian who died from the fire, it must have been a grandchild.

[rutht22000]

yep - have to agree with you there....the only thing that puts the 2 together is girl, baby and part of the cause of death that can be due to many things, one being smoke inhalation.  without anything more specific on the death certificate for Lilian, its impossible to say and the next generation needs looking into

[Spidermonkey]

Think we need Composemail to come back and see whether there is a possibility of the family story being another generation down.

Good work though, Ruth, on tracking all the siblings down!

[ComposeMail]

Hi Spidermonkey, and Rutht 22000,

Well done in tracking down all the children’s marriages etc.

The family story was that the child who died in the fire was one of Margaret Murray’s children.   But you have now accounted for them all, so perhaps you are right and we should be looking another generation down.   

I am not surprised that so many of the children’s marriages occurred in Liverpool.   It is possible that Robert and Margaret moved there when he retired out of the police force.   The family story is that “they had an eating house in Great Howard Street in Liverpool”.  I now have their daughter ETHEL’S Marriage Cert (1927 in Liverpool) to William Christopher Oldfield, which gave her father Robert Charles Gooch’s occupation as “dining room proprietor”.

Ethel and her brother Charles were living with their aunt and uncle Theresa and James Mason in Liverpool,   Theresa (Teresa) nee Murray was the sister of Margaret Murray (Murry).   Teresa was born in Dublin, and married there on 20.7.1879.   By any chance was the child who died in the fire belonging to James and Theresa Mason?   However, as far as I know, they had no children of their own.   Their address in the 1911 Census was 70 Dublin Street, Great Howard Street, Liverpool (perhaps the family memory got a mixed up here, or perhaps the 2 families did eventually live together)?

Teresa Mason died 7.1.1933 (age about 73), and her husband James Mason died before her on 2.11.1919 (age about 60).   We don’t know where they died – presumably the Liverpool area.

[ComposeMail]

Hi again Spidermonkey, and Rutht 22000,

I've been researching the grandchildren of Margaret Murry, and have come up with 2 who died young: I have great hopes that one of them is the child who died in the fire - now awaiting the Death Certs which I have ordered up.

Meanwhile I have been working on locating the correct Birth details  for Margaret Gooch (nee Murray) or Murry.

She was born 1868/69 in Dublin, Ireland (confirmed by the 1891, 1901 and 1911 Census).

The Cert for her 1926 marriage to Robert Charles Gooch shows her age as 57, suggesting she was born 1869.

Her maiden name is confirmed on the Birth/Death Certs of some of her children.

She was the daughter of Edward Murray, and Alice Hayden.

We have the strange situation where there are 3 children named Margaret born to this couple:

The first was the child Margaret who died, aged 1 year, 8 months on 20 August 1861, from 26 Clarence Street, Dublin (she is buried in the family grave in Glasnevin, Dublin, and I have confirmation of this information from the Glasnevin Trust records – including the fact that she was the child of Edward Murray).   

The second Margaret Murray (for which I have a Birth Certificate) was born 12 October 1866 at 25 Clarence Street, Dublin: father was Edward Murray of 25 Clarence Street, and the mother was Alice Murray (nee Hayden).   

The third Margaret Murray (again I have the Birth Certificate) was born 15 August 1867 at 25 Clarence Street: father was Edward Murray of 25 Clarence Street, and the mother was Alice Murray (nee Hayden).   

I have to assume that the 2nd Margaret (born 12 October 1866) also died, but I cannot find any matching death records.   Therefore leaving the 3rd. Margaret Murray (born 1867) as the one I am looking for, i.e. the one who became Margaret Gooch.

I would be grateful to have your comments on this situation!   What do you think?

[Spidermonkey]

Until proven otherwise, I too would assume that the second Margaret died.  It is not unusual to find that names are recycled within families with younger children being named after siblings that died.

One caveat with this, which I don't think applies in this situation but is worth flagging up, is that in some cases names which we would consider short forms/nicknames are given to living siblings - so for example you might have sisters christened Lizzie and Elizabeth.

Keep us informed with the grandchild hunt!

[ComposeMail]

Many thanks for that Spidermonkey!

Yes, waiting with baited breath for the Death Certs to arrive - could take a couple of weeks before they get here - but I will definitely come back to you when I get them.

Keep your fingers etc crossed!

[ComposeMail]

Hello again Spidermonkey,

The 2 Death Certs I ordered up arrived today - I guess the GRO are not too busy at the moment!

Alas, neither of them appear to have been the child who died in the fire.   

The first Death Cert was for Doris Louise Cerutti, died 16 May 1921, age 8 months, at her home 108 Park Road, Toxteth Park, Liverpool C.B.    Death Cert showed she was the daughter of Mario Cerutti, a motor wagon driver.   Her mother Violet (Violet Priscilla Gooch) was the Informant.   Doris Louise died from Bronchitis Convulsions.
Violet and Mario appear to have had 2 other children who both survived:  (*)

The second Death Cert was for Margaret Caroline Gorst, died 3 July 1939, age 20 months, at the General Hospital Waterloo in the reg district of Crosby, Lancs.   Her home was at 27 Manor Avenue, Great Crosby.   Her Death Cert shows that her father James William Gorst was the Informant (and in attendance), and his occupation was shown as Ship’s Quartermaster, Merchant Service.   Cause of death was cardiac failure, and tuberculous meningitis.
James William Gorst and his wife Aline (Eileen) Rachel Gooch seem to have had just one other child: (*)   He seems to have survived.

The other grandchildren of Robert Gooch and Margaret Murry which I located (and all seem to have survived) were:

Born to Herbert Knight and Margaret Florence Gooch.
4 entries in the Birth Index with the surname Knight and mother’s name Gooch:
   (*) All these children seem to have survived. (*)    (I suppose this last one seems unlikely as the mother would have been aged 51 when the child was born). 

Ethel Maud Gooch married William Christopher Oldfield 11.6.1927 in Liverpool.   I checked the records but could find no children born to Ethel and William.

Edwin Murray Gooch married Florence White in the last Qtr of 1918 in Bishops Stortford, Herts.   It appears Edwin and Florence may have had 2 children:
  (*)  These children seem to have survived.

James Victor Gooch married Florence M. Black in the 2nd Qtr of 1928 in Liverpool.
The Birth Index shows the following 2 children born to father Gooch, and mother Black:
   (*)    These children seem to have survived.

Gladys May Gooch married James Murthwaite in the 3rd Qtr of 1924 in Liverpool.
I checked the Birth Index, and the following children were born to father Murthwaite and mother Gooch:
   (*) These children seem to have survived.

Walter Sidney Gooch
I checked the Marriage Index and the only entry in the Liverpool area was in 1931 to Maude Richardson.
It appears from the Birth Index that they had 2 children:
   (*)    Both these children seem to have survived.

Vera Teresa Gooch married Bernard O’Hara in the 4th Qtr of 1928 in Liverpool.
I checked the Birth Index, but Vera and Bernard don’t seem to have had any children.

Lilian Dorothy Gooch born 6 Feb 1910 at Milestone Road, Knebworth, Hertfordshire.  This is the daughter of Robert Gooch and Margaret Murry who died 22 May 1910, age 3 months and 3 weeks, and who appears to have died of natural causes according to her Death Cert. 

The oldest child of Robert Gooch and Margaret Murry was Charles William Gooch, born 27 May 1890 in Norwich, Norfolk, but who lived in Liverpool with his aunt and uncle James Mason and Teresa Mason, nee Murray.   I could find no obvious match in the Marriage Index for Charles, and therefore have not been able to trace any children.

I would be grateful for your comments and thoughts, ideas on all this, and any more help you can give me to find the child who died in the fire.

(*) Moderator's Note: details of people removed as it is quite possible some or all still alive.

[johnlynn40]

How do I get in touh with Ruth22000.

I have recently read a post about the 'Knowles' family who lived at 23 Ashfield.  John and Hannah Knowles.  They are the Great Grandparents of my partner and we would like to know any information there might be available for them.