Surgeon John CATES

[majm]

Possible info returning to Australia c 1859

Thinking outside the square, looked for GATES instead of CATES

There's a Charles GATES indexed as being aged 18 (b Oct 1840 = 18 as at May 1859) arrived into Melbourne 8 May 1859 on ship KENT,  from Gravesend

ALSO 1892 
Theres a Mr G Collier CATES aged 29 arriving into Melbourne in Oct 1892 ex the Orizaba  (presume transcript error ... handwritten "G" and "C" issue...)

 http://www.prov.vic.gov.au/indexes/index_search_results.asp

Terry, please .. any clues as to significance of "Collier" as a middle name

Cheers,  JM

[majm]

Re 1892 Ozibana voyage

Good write up with lots of info in SMH of Tuesday 25 October 1892 including exact hour and date at various ports http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13883696  arrived Albany WA, then Adelaide SA thence Melbourne Vic and then to Sydney arriving at 8 a.m. on 24 Oct  ... so that explains why I couldn't find him at Forest Lodge in 1892 directory ... he was in England and then "all at sea" ... Obviously Sequestration in NSW did not restrain one from leaving the colony. (I learn something new every day) ...
 

IF only there was that much detail in the newspapers of the 1850's perhaps we would know if Dr John Cates et al returned to Sydney ... 

Cheers,  JM

[sparrett]

Just adding a basic annotation here which nonethe less, is important for the record

Death of

ELIZABETH ANN RICHARDSON
REG. 26019/1977 
Father  CHARLES COLLIER
Mother  SARA
In NSW


Sue     

[majm]

 

And from Ryerson Index http://www.ryersonindex.org/

RICHARDSON Elizabeth Ann
Death  30 OCT1977 at 88  late of Lakemba
newspaper notice in Sydney Morning Herald 31OCT1977

[TerryD]

Hi JM and Sue,

WOW you have been busy and a lot to take in.

So need to review,

JM I think the confusion with 2 and 3 children on Mellish is to do with Humphrey being born on board or about to be born. What do you both think?

Also I think we are getting confused with two sons due to the middle name Collier. I think Charles Collier Cates was born in England and came over on Mellish, I need to find his birth in UK and try and work out the Collier link.
George Collier Cates was then born in NSW in 1840.

So for Charles Collier Cates we have
Born Uk, Came to Australia 1839, have a feeling he didn't return to Uk in 1850 on Mary White but could have.
Between 1850 and 1865 he gets married somewhere and wife dies and he ends up in Ireland in 1865 when he marries Annabel Flood.
(1867 marriage in dublin cant be right, the female Cates who married cant be daughter of both Charles and Annabel, (even they cant produce that quickly) Charles daughter from prev marriage or Annabel daughter who took Cates name.)
Between 1865 and 1873 Charles makes his way to New Zealand and marries Annie Buchanan on 22/5/1873 probably bigamously.
Then in 1888 marries Sarah Woodward in Goulborn and has daughter Elizabeth 1889 in Newcastle and son Charles Augustus 1890 who says he born in Dunedin NZ when he enlists in 1915.
As we cant pin Charles down in late 80's /early 90's I think he travelling around NA/AUS perhaps still trying to sell his Conqueror Washing Powder until it all goes wrong and he ends up insolvent and then dies in 1893 in Glebe, Sydney.
Sarah remarries 1893.
Elizabeth and Charles A put in asylum 1895.

What do you both think of above?


 
 

[TerryD]

JM

With regards the Orizaba and Kent ships these are very confusing and I reckon they could be red herrings to where we are at mo.

Charles Gates on Kent in 1859 - its George Collier Cates who is 18 in 1859 not Charles so very doubtful.

The Collier Cates on Orizaba is very likely to be associated with this family but George would be 42 not 29 in 1892 and Charles would be 60's.

ARGHH have we got another Cates with the name Collier!!!!

[TerryD]

I went on the PROV site to check the George Collier Cates entry which definitely says 29(wrong age for us) but just looked at other lists.

Now I reckon Charles Collier Cates was born 1835-1837 and thats why I am having trouble with his birth as UK records online 1837 onwards. If we could track down his age from elsewhere it would be helpful. 

However back to case in point I have found a C C Cates age 24 in Feb 1862 travelling from Victoria to Otago, New Zealand on Chariot of Fame. Could be our travelling Charles Collier.

This story gets bigger and bigger !!!!

[majm]

  and bigger !

I'll ponder over your remarks, although I think there's two different Irish marriages, ie four people ... perhaps one couple were middle aged or older  Please check it out, as the 1865 marriage was for Charles Collier Cates to Annabelle Flood with his father being John Cates while the 1867 marriage notes the BRIDES parents as Charles Collier Cates and Annabelle Flood.   https://beta.familysearch.org/

 
☻ Also I am convinced that Charles Collier Cates, son of John Cates was born NSW in and thus could NOT have been onboard the Mellish on its way to NSW in 1839 .... 
☻ Also Humphrey was born two months AFTER the ship arrived in Sydney and he didn't survive his infancy   
☻ And there's the conflicting newspapers reporting as to how many children came with John and Elizabeth ... 2 or 3 ...  BUT have I left you any children to have come on that voyage 

  Oh well .... Here's the promised BIGGER ....  Charles Augustus Cates was NOT born in NZ ... maybe his mum and step-dad took CAC and sister to NZ after Charles Collier Cates' death  !

1890 November 14 birth in Queensland !  https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/BirIndexQry.m
Charles Augustus CATES to Charles Collier Cates and Sarah Woodward with ref  1890/C4835  (Terry, the "C" indicates this was C for Country ie NOT in Brisbane the capital city of Qld)

I had the birth of the Girl in 1889 but cant find the birth of the son which from your info should have been in 1890. Am I asuming right ?TERRY

I am not able to locate the birth of CHARLES AUGUSTUS in NSW or VICTORIA .

His death (above) at least confirms he was the child of Charles C and Sarah

Cheers,  JM

[TerryD]

Hi JM

Thanks for your patience and continued help.

By the way I have emailed Christchurch st Laurance Church so hopefully there achivist will be able to help.

Brilliant news on Charles Augustus 's birth, thank you again.

With regards Humphrey, sorry i wasnt aware he had died in infancy , where did you find that info?

Also we have no records of Charles Collier being born in NSW and unfortunately I cant find birth in Uk either. However I am sure the two boys who came over were William and Charles.

With regards the Irish marriage, i can find the 1865 marraige and I am sure that is our man. Cant get the female cates marrage in 1867 to appear at all when I search the link you gave me and i think that must be a dud record. I cannot think that a Charles Collier Cates would have married an Anabell Flood 20 or so years after another Charles collier Cates and Annabel Flood had married which is what would have had to have happened for a daughter Cates with those parents to have maried in 1867. 

Terry