Herbert Raven

[Evie]

Hi Luke

Can you give us the details of Sarah on the marriage certificate please, father etc?

Evie

[pevenseyranger]

Sarah Ann Burton 1882-3 Whitwick

Father James Burton - Coal Miner
Mother Kate   Burton

Address of Herbert and Sarah - 2 Prospect place

[Evie]

Hi Luke

This is strange. I keep thinking I have found the correct Herbert and then other information throws a spanner in the works. I will have to give you small bits at a time as I am getting confused and I think I will confuse you to.

This is what I have found this morning.

Looking at WW1 service records one Herbert states he marries Sarah Ann Burton 24th Jan 1905 St Peter's Parish church, Birmingham I wonder if the recruiting officer just presumed it was Birmingham as they are living at 25 Lodge Road, Aston, Birmingham. He states his age as 39 years 8 months on the 19. 10. 1915. He gives his birth place as Nottingham, Nottinghamshire. Occupation Carter. His previous service was the 2nd battalion scottish regiment (will come back to this later)

Further on for marriage it just says St Peters and date given 19 Jan 1894 although this was crossed out on previous page

Evie

[Evie]

Ok according to earlier military records the Herbert who served with the scottish rifles as mentioned earlier was Herbert Barnes Raven who gave his place of birth at that time Herdington Birmingham Warwickshire. But this can't be as found by Catone on earlier post.

His mother is given as A Raven, Market Square, Carrington. Interesting that the other Herbert's mother also was living at Market Square.

So I think this must be your Herbert and not the one that has mother Emma Thomas

Will keep trying to differentiate, just to be sure

[pevenseyranger]

Thank you Evie , you have given me lots to go on .

Luke

[pevenseyranger]

well, I've had a few day's to mull things over and i will summarise them here to see what you think.

There seems to be three Herbert Ravens in the frame .

1,  The Herbert Raven in the 1911 census is in prison , it states that he is married , a labourer, 26 years old born in Nottingham . I can find no details of a birth in1885 for this so its not clear on his age. In the 1911 census Sarah Ann Raven is not living with her Husband for what ever reason, could it be her Husband is in prison?

2, In the 1901 census there is a Herbert Raven in prison in York , it states that he is a soldier , he was born 1880 in St Saviours Nottingham does any one know this place? it says that he is married but looking on Ancestry i could find no marriage details leading up to 1901.
He appears in no other census and i cannot find him in the births .
He joined the forces in 1900  Dec 5 and his age is 20 years and 9 months  , i would guess that he was born in MARCH .
His next of kin is his mother ( not his wife ) Emma Thomas who I'm quite sure was Emma Raven 1855.
Emma Thomas lives at 11 MARKET SQUARE

3, Herbert Barnes Raven , born in 1878 MARCH  on birth records. he appears on no census that i can see.
The Herbert Raven service record says he married Sarah Ann Burton in 1905 and his age is 39 years and 8 months  on the 19 Oct 1915 that would make it about 1876  Feb /MARCH but on there marrage certificate he puts his age at 23 so this Herbert Raven is fiddling his age when suits him.
Also Herbert Barnes Raven in 1915 put his mother as next of kin as A Raven living in MARKET SQUARE . I looked on Ancestry and could find no marriage details of A Raven.
Also in the Nottinghamshire Guardian Jan 8 1898 he was in trouble with the police, his age is 21 .

With all the information that i have,i have a hunch that  may be the Herbert Raven in my family tree is in fact all the above or it could be that all the three Herbert Ravens here are a dodgy bunch .
I have sent off for the Birth certificate of Herbert Barnes Raven , i hope that this will show his parents on it and lead on to more information.

Luke

[Evie]

Good summary Luke

I believe we are dealing with a Herbert Barnes Raven and a Herbert Raven - just the two.

I found Herbert Barnes Raven at RG11 Piece 3398 Folio 88 Page 41 in 1881 he was a nurse child living at Back of No 18 Markeaton St, Derby

Mary Pegg, Head, Widow, 51, Nurse, Devonshire
Charles Pegg, son, single, 22, Derby, Derbyshire
Herbert B Ravens, nurse child, 3, Nottingham, Notts

Evie

[Evie]

Hi Luke

Found another military record for Herbert Raven (not Herbert Barnes Raven). Territorial Force says he has not served with any military 6th April 1915 age 29 years 2 months. Served for only 32 days next of kin mother Elizabeth Thomas (Emma Elizabeth Thomas) address 6 Market Square, Carrington, Notts.

I wish I could find Emma in the 1891 census she should also have with her a Mabel born about 1887 Nottinghamshire.

I do hope the birth certificate arrives quickly for Herbert Barnes Raven - this is killing me

Is there any way you can scan the witnesses names from the marriage cert and put them on the thread for deciphering?

Evie

[CatOne]

Theres an Emma Elizabeth Raven marrying in September 1884 Nottingham to a Brown or Beresford, and a widowed Emma Brown, visitor at Church Drive, Basford, Nottinghamshire in 1891 RG12/2670 Folio 102 Page 3, no sign of any children though