Lady Ann of Clontarf?

[shanew147]

....
It wouldn't be via Burke as Jessie's mother wasn't a Burke!

It would be via Jessie's mother, so you have to find Jessie's mother not Jessie's husband!
John Sutherland married Miss X, (who had an inherited ring).... Miss X's mother was Miss Y (who had an inherited ring from her mother) whose mother was Miss Ann Z (Lady) of Clontarf....
.....

that's the stage where I loose the trail of evidence in this. We know Jessie was born in Scotland, so where does Clontarf come in to the story other than with her marriage ?

I think maybe the timelines and locations in the story have become crossed....


Shane

[Joseph L. Oliver]

Hallmark:

Perhaps you didn't see my earlier post regarding Burke, not Sutherland being the Lady Anne connection.  Yes, I originally took as Bible the notion of an unbroken chain of first born females handing down the artifacts from Lady Anne.  But with the discovery of the Clontarf marriage certificate, I have discounted that notion, and with it, Jessie Sutherland decending from Lady Anne.

The original story from my Aunt was that Lady Anne was of a castle in a place that sounded like "Glentarf", She wasn't sure of the pronunciation of the town, but she was sure that the country was Ireland.

In 2003 I found "Clontarf" in Ireland, but I could find no online info.

But two years ago I discovered two variants of Glen Tarf, Scotland, and then I found that Jessie Sutherland was Scots.  I "put one and one together" and focused on Jessie Sutherland being the conduit to Lady Anne.  But I could find nothing.

Then when the RC gang found the Marriage cert. for Jessie Sutherland and James Burke in "Clontarf" and "Ireland", I could no longer give credence to Jessie Sutherland being the Lady Anne connection.  With this information, I'm putting "two plus two together" (Clontarf + Ireland plus Sutherland + Burke).  The case for Ireland conforms much closer to the evidence and the oral history, so it simply outweighs the evidence for Scotland.  So, James Burke, not his wife Jessie Sutherland, must be the connection. 

So with that, I have to discard the notion of the unbroken line of first-born females handing down the artifacts.  True, my Aunt says that the artifacts have been handed down through 1st born daughters, but what if a daughter wasn't born to Lady Anne, or if her daughter died before having her own daughter?  It could have been broken at any time.  Plus, we don't know who may have started that tradition.  Perhaps it was Lady Anne's niece, nephew, son, grand daughter, grandson, daughter-in-law...

Thanks, I gotta hit the hay.  it's 2am!

Joe  

[Joseph L. Oliver]

I did just do a quick search on Scotland's for John and Jessie Sutherland in the 1841 Census.  The best match was a 55 yo male John, Messenger at Arms, with a 51yo Margt. and a 13 yo Jessie.  John's profession and age don't seem to fit someone who would be listed as "Captain of the Army" nine years later in Jessie's marriage certificate.

Good Night!

Joe 

[hallmark]

Hallmark:

Perhaps you didn't see my earlier post regarding Burke, not Sutherland being the Lady Anne connection.  Yes, I originally took as Bible the notion of an unbroken chain of first born females handing down the artifacts from Lady Anne.  But with the discovery of the Clontarf marriage certificate, I have discounted that notion, and with it, Jessie Sutherland decending from Lady Anne.

The original story from my Aunt was that Lady Anne was of a castle in a place that sounded like "Glentarf", She wasn't sure of the pronunciation of the town, but she was sure that the country was Ireland.

In 2003 I found "Clontarf" in Ireland, but I could find no online info.

But two years ago I discovered two variants of Glen Tarf, Scotland, and then I found that Jessie Sutherland was Scots.  I "put one and one together" and focused on Jessie Sutherland being the conduit to Lady Anne.  But I could find nothing.

Then when the RC gang found the Marriage cert. for Jessie Sutherland and James Burke in "Clontarf" and "Ireland", I could no longer give credence to Jessie Sutherland being the Lady Anne connection.  With this information, I'm putting "two plus two together" (Clontarf + Ireland plus Sutherland + Burke).  The case for Ireland conforms much closer to the evidence and the oral history, so it simply outweighs the evidence for Scotland.  So, James Burke, not his wife Jessie Sutherland, must be the connection. 

So with that, I have to discard the notion of the unbroken line of first-born females handing down the artifacts.  True, my Aunt says that the artifacts have been handed down through 1st born daughters, but what if a daughter wasn't born to Lady Anne, or if her daughter died before having her own daughter?  It could have been broken at any time.  Plus, we don't know who may have started that tradition.  Perhaps it was Lady Anne's niece, nephew, son, grand daughter, grandson, daughter-in-law...

Thanks, I gotta hit the hay.  it's 2am!

Joe  

No, didn't see that but according to your guesstimate post above it still looks like it's through Jessie's mother>her Mother>her mother....

Because she married in Clontarf and was from Scotland there may well have been a family connection to Clontarf, her guardians may very well have been relatives and also from Ann of Clontarf! As there are normally a witness from each side then Ross could quite easily be the relatives...

The best match was a 55 yo male John, Messenger at Arms, with a 51yo Margt. and a 13 yo Jessie.

For example; 55 yo male John, Messenger at Arms, with a 51yo Margt Ross (??) and a 13 yo Jessie. I don't think 9 years to become a captain all that unbelievable!

Jessie was over 21, under guardianship, from Scotland.. so why not have guardians in Scotland or England?? So, why Clontarf?

You originally took as Bible the notion of an unbroken chain of first born females handing down the artefacts from Lady Anne.  But with the discovery of the Clontarf marriage certificate, you have now discounted that notion and with it Jessie Sutherland descending from Lady Anne....  Why??

The fact that she is in Clontarf supports the family beliefs, not weaken them!
Of all the places she could have gone why go to Clontarf?

[Pastmagic]

Hi JOE, 1841:

Johen Sutherland, age 55 Born 1788, Wife Margaret aged 51, born
1786, Dau Jessie  Sutherland aged 13, Son Watter( their spelling) Mclean Sutherland    
 They are living in Forfar in the County of Angus, at Sprout Street.
His occupation is Messenger at Arms. can't pick him up in 1851.

(A messenger-at-arms is an officer of the Scottish Court of Session, responsible for serving documents and enforcing court orders throughout Scotland. Messengers-at-arms must have a commission as a sheriff officer. They don't exist in Ireland, but could a contarf Vicar turn that into Army Captain? They were known as "Officers of the King".)                                             

Next closest is:John Sutherland, age 53 b. 1798
Wife    Ann Sutherland

All born Halkirk, Caithness Harpsdale. Occupation given as farmer 7 Acres   
 including Dau Jessie Sutherland    23,   plus  6 siblings. She is a bit old, but this is the 1841 census.  There is more detail if Joe wants it, but nothing to really make a connection.

However, there are lots of Jessie Sutherlands of the right age in schools, in households where there is no father on the night of the census, in households with other people etc.

No Jessie Sophia anywhere. Tried all the variants Lots of Janets with father John. mostly crofters and ag labourers, so hard to imagine an Army Captain...unless... he got tided up for the register, as happens!

Joe - suggest you get the record of this Jessie from Scotlands people.

No conclusive evidence as to Lady Ann being on male or female line yet.

Any number of reasons why silouettes packed in portrait on a long voyage to America or earlier. They are fragile items.

Interesting about James occupation, and a good lesson for us all about assumptions!

Bring on the portrait!

PM

[MonicaL]

I have looked already at this family in Forfar, with father John, messenger at arms. The family show as born outside of the county of Angus (Forfar) on their 1841 census entry.

I think wife may be Margaret Stewart. These are the children's births/christenings showing on IGI and SP:

John 1812 in Alyth Perth
Alexander 1813 in Alyth Perth
William 1815 in Alyth Perth - died that year
Ann 1816 in Alyth Perth (likely died young)
Ann 1819 in Forfar Angus
Elizabeth 1820 in Forfar Angus
Margaret 1823 in Forfar Angus

Jessie 1828 and Walter 1830 don't show on the Old Parish Register index on either SP or IGI. Nor is there a marriage showing between 1800-1815 for a couple with these names.

Possible entries in 1851 that I also found:

Walter Sutherland, 21, shoemaker, b. Forfar lodging with a Mollison family in Inverkeilor, Angus, and
Jessie Sutherland, 22, domestic servant b. Forfar working at the Matthew household in Perth, Perthshire

There is no mention in the OPRs births/christenings for a Jessie Sophia Sutherland. There is only one entry for a Sophia (no first name), daughter of John and mother Sophia in the right year range. The family were from Aberdeenshire, and father an agricultural labourer.

I have also looked at possible entries for Janet/Jean/Jane which are all variants with Jessie (see www.whatsinaname.net/) and nothing really jumping out unfortunately.

I am really stuck on what to advice now on the Scottish side without some new info 

Monica

[Joseph L. Oliver]

Hallmark et all:

THe next time I attempt to wrap my 2 a.m. mind around a bunch of ancestral gymnastics spurred by perusal of numerous emails that would challenge a well caffinated brain at high noon, please just ignore it.

My apologies.  I should have explained that by posting the "table" of women born between my "niece" (actually my cousin's daughter) and Lady Anne, I was only using the women (sorry!) as a way of figuring out the number of generations, the number of Great Grandmothers between Jessie Koplik ne Curtis and Lady Anne, and the years in which Lady Anne may have been born. 

So, with that said, and in consideration of your last email:

The first picture is of my brain.

The second is of my brain on RootsChat.

Any questions?

Joe

   

[Joseph L. Oliver]

Joe - suggest you get the record of this Jessie from Scotlands people.

PM:

I am not clear on exactly which record you are referring to.  And I don't understand the significance of "getting the record".  When I looked up the info on Scotland's, I downloaded the page from the Cesus.  Is that what you mean?

Joe

[Pastmagic]

hi Joe,

Monica went and got the record, see her last post here. No joy there. So we are back to the portrait.


PM