Lady Ann of Clontarf?

[Pastmagic]

Hi Joe,

As guesstimates go, no problem there. Is there anything in US records to confirm Jessie was born in 1828, or does this come from the Clontarf marriage record?

Hallmark, re the Scottish records, all Joe has to go on is her name, a putative father, John, army officer, from the Clontarf records. Going by the 1841 census, there are dozens of candidates for a Baptism record, unless Joe finds that only one or two have army officer fathers. He may be lucky as I couldn't find any at all in the 1841 census, - several army pensioners, and the one sargeant at arms. Might be worth spending the few bob to look, Joe.

  The identification of the first sillouette as c.1830, origin British Isles - I did email it to someone expert in these things -means it cannot be  of anyone born 1828. I think it would be well worth looking at the other items for dates especially the portrait and the ring, for further clues.

Hallmark,My view on Lady Ann is slightly different from yours, in that there was one individual who would formally be called Lady Clontarf in the historic record - the wife  of Rawson, Viscount Clontarf.

Debrett,the Bible of UK Titles says:

This the fourth grade in the peerage.  A viscount is, in conversation, referred to as Lord (Chelmsford) rather than the Viscount Chelmsford

The wife of a viscount is a viscountess and is known as Lady (Chelmsford). Use of the title viscountess in speech is socially incorrect unless it needs to be specifically mentioned, for example in a list of patrons.

http://www.debretts.com/forms-of-address/titles/viscount-and-viscountess.aspx


I am not saying this Lady Clontarf is the one Joe is looking for, merely that there is no myth - there was a historical lady Clontarf,  just earlier than Joe's guesstimates, and in my view, oral history can often have a grain of truth and a distortion of time combined. It is 160 years since that wedding in Clontarf.  Joe's family history is that the portrait is of Lady Anne, and a date on it would be very helpful in evaluating this hypothesis. Hairstyle, dress, pose, ornamentation etc, might give clues.

However it might be worth Joe starting another thread on Scotland General giving the Clontarf marriage details and seeing if anyone can help him find that JS?

Joe, I know this is very frustrating, it seems to me that no Lady Clontarf is on offer for the dates your guesstimates give, allthough there are several relatives of the only person who would have been called Lady Clontarf, who are wives or daughters of Earls, with the name Ann or Anne  in the area for the period you estimate.

[MonicaL]

I feel as I have been AWOL from this post for a little while (been away for nearly 3 weeks, back now to the dark winter  )

Just picking up on a couple of your points PM:

The estimated birth year of c.1828 I think comes from the only census entry that we have for Jessie, the 1880 US census.

Regarding Scottish records pre the start of official registration in Scotland from 1855. Before this date, the main source of accessible on line records are from the Old Parish Registers for the established Church of Scotland, i.e. presbyterian. It is these entries, in the main, that show on both the official pay to view site of Scotlands People and indexed entries on IGI. Last year, Scotlands People added what records are available regarding Roman Catholic births/christenings on to their website.

I am sure, no different to elsewhere, OPR entries vary enormously by parish throughout Scotland, some more informative than others. In the main though, these entries are minimal in terms of the info they contain (with the very occassional parish entry that does include a little bit more info). There are also big gaps in the registers, many of which have been lost or destroyed over the years.

Likely may not apply in the case of the Sutherland family if the family were wealthy, but poorer families often chose not to register/ christen their children as it cost money to do so.

I am sounding negative but trying to be realistic on what can be some of the issues when researching in this pre official registration era in Scotland.

From what I have seen on this post and also what is happening on the US post (been catching up me this morning  ), we have still not been able to find James and Jessie with children in the US censuses for 1860/70 which is a pity for all sorts of reasons. We are for sure missing some children's birth/name details and also, to date, only have one census (1880) to be able to gauge possible ages/birth years for James and Jessie - never good to rely on just one is it  I think Joe you have found mention of James in the local directories certainly though the 1870s to the early 1890s - it's the years before where there is a big black hole.

I think from the US post that you have found Joe possible death dates/ interments for James and Jessie. Don't know whether you have been able to make any enquires as to whether any documents or records still exist for these deaths, such as age at death for example:

Burk, James F, interred September 8, 1894
Burk, Jessie, interred April 2, 1889

Monica (who spent a big chunk of her morning going through again the 1860/70 censuses  )

[Pastmagic]

Hi Joe and Monica,

Looked at the other thread. I know what you mean about the Scottish records - I really have fingers crossed on this one for Joe and will continue digging. PM

[hallmark]

Don't have a problem with that but to get from A to Z you have to go A, B, C, D etc. OR go from Z to A...

If there was a Lady Ann and even earlier than Joe thinks then there are a few generations between where we are and where Ann was.

re the Scottish records, all Joe has to go on is her name, a putative father, John, army officer, from the Clontarf records. Going by the 1841 census, there are dozens of candidates for a Baptism record, unless Joe finds that only one or two have army officer fathers.

Well it's as much as many of us get, he's extremely lucky even to get the marriage cert on line!  

He has (I think) her birth year, two Christian names for her, father's name.. how many Jessie Sophia Sutherlands were born in Scotland in 1828 with a father John?

To make progress he can only deal with known facts, which are probably not in Ireland at this stage. He may well get back to a Lady Ann in Clontarf but with facts.

Even knowing if this Ann is on the maternal or paternal line would cut the problem in half!

[Joseph L. Oliver]

Whooowie...  Lots to reply to.  Here I will just address James and Jessie in Cincinnati.

But first, Happy New Year everyone.  Thanks again for combining forces to help me with this quest.  You are all very generous and sweet.

Secondly, a few days ago I fired off a request for 10 records to the Archdiocese of Cincinnati.  Typically they respond in 30 to 60 days.  Agonizing, but at the end of that two month eternity, hopefully we may uncover birth records between 1850 and 1855, plus marriage and death records.

Monica, you are correct:  the only birthdate source for Jessie Burke ne Sutherland is the 1880 cesus (June 14th) saying she is 52 years old.  And I agree, the lack of Jessie and James Burke in the 1860 and 1870 Census is very frustrating.  However, take heart in this:  I found an elusive "Curtis" (my great grandma Jessie's maiden name) in the US Census by simply (hah!) combing through the Census by "Wards".  I knew the ward he lived in (Cincy directory) but could not find him on Ancestry.c.  So I combed the ward page by page and found him.  The problem?  His name was recorded by the Census enumerator as "Cartes", which I suppose can be phonetically justified as "Curtis".  So, out of two Census years (1860 and 1870), who knows how "Burke" may have been misunderstood by an enumerator, and/or mis-transcribed by Anc---.com.

I am an EXTREME fan of Arthur Conan Doyle, who's advice, as a good Scotsman, seems appropriate here.  Speaking through a certain detective character that some of you may have heard of, he implores us:

"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"

Now, with that fresh in mind, it is a fact that Mary Helen Burke was born to James F. Burke and Jessie Burke ne Sutherland in 1855 in Cincinnati, Ohio.  Another child John James was born in Cincy in 1861.  AND, in the 1880 Census James and Jessie are both shown living in Cincinnati.  Despite this body of hard evidence of James F. living in Cincinnati, there is no actual listing for "James F. Burke" in the Cincy directory for his first 25 years in the US:  between 1850 and 1875, and no presence in the 1860 and 1870 Census's!  Those are the facts.

There are other possible indications of this guy (so many "Jas.'s) scattered in the Cincy Directory, as early as 1851, which lists a "J. F. Burke, reporter", and up through 1876.  From that point on to 1894, listings for "James F. Burke" are fairly clear and consistent.

My point?  We can't find him anywhere else in the US except in Cincinnati.  I'm going with a probability:  that this guy stayed in Cincinnati throughout his life in the US.

By the way, I made a discovery the other day regarding James's occupation as "collector".  The position wasn't with a railroad, but with a Lighting Rod manufacturer, as early as 1879.  He stuck with that line of work until the year he (probably) died:  1894.  Not much use, but there it is.

Now on to other things in another post.

Joe   

[Joseph L. Oliver]

PM, Hallmark, and Monica:

These last few posts of yours are great!  You all seem to be distilling past posts, adding some recent perspective, and giving the conversation clarity.  Cool, very cool.  I mean warm, we're getting warm!

PM:  regarding the following:

Going by the 1841 census, there are dozens of candidates for a Baptism record, unless Joe finds that only one or two have army officer fathers. He may be lucky as I couldn't find any at all in the 1841 census, - several army pensioners, and the one sargeant at arms. Might be worth spending the few bob to look, Joe.

  The identification of the first silhouette as c.1830, origin British Isles - I did email it to someone expert in these things -means it cannot be  of anyone born 1828. I think it would be well worth looking at the other items for dates especially the portrait and the ring, for further clues.

Hey, I've had credits with Scotland's for months!  I'm happy to spend the dough!  I just need to know what to ask!

And,  regarding your notes on the silhouettes.  VERY interesting regarding the dates.  But please recall this:  I've seen all three (a couple of years ago).  My Aunt, my cousins, and I all agree that while one of them might be Lady Anne, each of the silhouettes are of three unique people.  Oh, I wish my Aunt would get the two remaining and the portrait photographed!

And Hallmark: 

"Well it's as much as many of us get, he's extremely lucky even to get the marriage cert on line!"
You said it.  Yes, oh yes I am so blessed, so double blessed!  LOTS of great information that YOU folks have dug up!  And, it can't hurt to amp up my appreciation.

Gotta Go!

Oh, one more point that I believe Sherlock Holmes would definitely include in a line of investigation:

Why would three beautiful silhouettes be concealed in a frame between a portrait and the portrait's backing?

Joe





 

[Joseph L. Oliver]

Regarding posting on the Scotland section:   should I start a brand new thread with hopes that it will attract new information?

Would the following be appropriate:

Looking for information regarding an ancestor John Sutherland, father to my ancestor Jessie Sutherland.  She was born 1828 Scotland.  John is noted as "Captain in the Army" on the record of Jessie's 1850 marriage in Clontarf, Ireland.  Would love to find the record of Jessie's baptism, in hopes of finding her mother's maiden name, and/or the record of the marriage of John Sutherland to Jessie's mother.

Joe

[hallmark]

Even to ask on Scotland board you can only ask about what you know, based on the marriage cert and that you get a birth year of 1828 based on US census.

You are looking for birth of a Jessie Sophie Sutherland in 1828 with father John.

He may not even have been in army in 1828, we don't know. Even your guesstimate is only a guess and you are basing it on the first child being born was a daughter in each generation for inheriting..

What if Jessie's mother was 3rd child with her mother in turn being a 3rd child and her mother again being the 3rd child..??
You can only guesstimate Jessie's parents marriage as you don't know if she had older brothers.



Even knowing if this Ann is on Jessie's maternal or paternal line would cut the problem in half! Do you know??

[hallmark]

I can cleanly trace my mother's maternal ancestors to Jesse Sutherland, b. 1828 in Scotland (where there is a Glen Tarff and Glentarf).  And since the relics are handed down via 1st born girls, it seems that I should be focusing on Scotland for Lady Ann.

But today a very nice person on Rootschat discovered that Jesse S. Sutherland of Scotland married James F. Burke in 1850 in Clontarf, Dublin, Ireland (for years I've known that James F. was born in Dublin 1830).  So faced with these intersections of data, now I must focus on Clontarf in Ireland, with the possibility that James F. Burke had no female siblings or his female siblings had no daughters, so he got the relics from his mother and then gave them to his first born daughter.


It wouldn't be via Burke as Jessie's mother wasn't a Burke!

It would be via Jessie's mother, so you have to find Jessie's mother not Jessie's husband!
John Sutherland married Miss X, (who had an inherited ring).... Miss X's mother was Miss Y (who had an inherited ring from her mother) whose mother was Miss Ann Z (Lady) of Clontarf....

You need to find X to find Y to find Z...

Jesse Burke   (ne Sutherland)    born                     1828
mom of above: Miss X          born    (guess) 1808 (b/w 1803 & 1813) 10 yr slop  (JK's GG #1)
mom of above: Miss Y          born      (guess)   1788 (b/w 1778 & 1798) 20 yr slop  (JK's GG #2)
Lady Anne:  Miss  Ann Z       born     (guess)   1768 (b/w 1752 & 1783) 31 yr slop  (JK's GG #3)