Lady Ann of Clontarf?

[Joseph L. Oliver]

Hello All!

Hope your holidays have been enjoyable.  We had a gorgeous snow on Christmas eve into Christmas day.

Well, here is the letter sent by the researcher from Clontarfonline.  Don't really know how it will affect the conversation, but for what it's worth:


"Did you go onto the Rootschat that was listed at the end of the email.? Some interesting exchanges of info.
From reading the chats between this Joe and other people he has got the marriage of James Francis Burke and Jesse Sophia Sutherland in Clontarf in 1850.  That information came from the Church of Ireland registers which are now on a free website under the Dept. of Tourism, etc.
www.irighgenealogy.ie. This website has some Dublin CAtholic and C. of Ireland records as well as all of Kerry and some Cork - more will be added in due course. The good thing about it is that some parishes have the actual images of the original registers on it - including Clontarf.
Therefore Joe can print it out - he may have done so already.
Look at it yourself. There is also a list of the parishes covered and the dates.
.
There are 2 entries for this marriage - one is 20 April 1850 and another is 29 April - one is the church register which states that the marriage took place with the consent of guardians [other marriages took place with the consent of parents]  - perhaps because she came from Scotland or had to have the permission of guardians to marry? 

The other record is the civil record which the rector would have filled out for the civil authority. Unusual to have the 2 records. The correct date is 20 April 1850.  They also got married by licence [not by banns] - the more well off bought a licence more for privacy - the original marriage licences were all lost in 1922 which would have given more information. I see that the witness was an Edward Burke - could be a brother - the other witness name is Jane Ross - but transcribed incorrectly as Boss or Rose. James's father is John Burke, a gentleman and the bride's father is John Sutherland, a captain in the Army. No baptism for James Francis found in Clontarf - so could have been baptised in any parish in Dublin or elsewhere - not all parishes are on that website.
 
I also found the family in the 1880 Census in US - also freely available on web - I am sure this Joe has already found this & has checked other Census in US.
 
There is no Lady Anne of Clontarf - that's a myth - there was no Earl of Clontarf.

There is some mention in this Rootschat about the Guinness family - but Sir Benjamin Guinness married his cousin Elizabeth Guinness [not Anne Guinness] and his daughter was Anne. His son, Lord Ardilaun married Olive White. Dont know details of Lord Charlemont from Marino - but that would be in Burke's Peerage - family name is Caulfield. 

I checked Griffiths Valuation [www.askaboutireland.ie] free to search - it lists occupiers of every house and land in the country - Dublin was surveyed in 1848 and 1850 - it lists only the head of household - it was a property tax - remember rates? James's father John if he lived in Clontarf at that time should be listed but only found a Patrick Lawless & John Burke as joint occupier of a house in Back Lane of Greenlanes townland - valued at £4 - this does not look like a gentleman's house.

The chat website also mentions that someone had checked Thom's Directory for 1848 - no James or John listed for Clontarf - but you would need to check a few years of Thoms to see if the family was listed."

Well everyone, hope this provides something to get things rolling again.

Regards,

Joe

[Pastmagic]

Hi Joe,

Glad you had a happy xmas. Don't think that that adds much to the discussion, as we knew there was no Earl of Clontarf anyway! One other odd thing I noticed was there is another Jessie Sutherland from Scotland living in Howth in the 1911 census old enough to be your Jessies mother. But not in 1901...

However, when you upload the second and third shilouettes and the portrait, we will have a better idea of dates, as the first one can't be your Jessie but one generation back from her.

What we have established I think, is that there are several possible contenders for Lady Ann, but no proof of any knd. Also several potential family members for both J and JF, but again no proof, all living in Dublin at the time of the marriage.

I feel still that two stories have got mixed up - the marriage which took place right at  the old C of I church at Clontarf Castle, where the only two people who could  ever have been called Lady Clontarf lived, and a titled ancestor who may or may not have Clontarf connections, or be one of these two. Apart from the marriage cert, which technically has not been absolutely proved to be J and JF, but on balance of probability most likely is, the artificats  and your family stories are what may tell us more! The ring, from the photo looks like a cluster ring, which could be a 16th/17th C or 18th or 19th, depending on the setting. Any good antique jewellery store  could date it and see whether it has an asssay mark, which will give maker, country of origion and date of manifacture. If it's later, it will have a foil setting.  As it is the original property of your lady Ann, she cannot be older than her ring, even though it can be older than her...Also as the Clontarf contact points out, the licence suggests either wealth or a privacy issue...so the parish minute books may have something to add.

Best wishes, PM

[Joseph L. Oliver]

PM:

Thanks for the summary.  It really helps.  I will call my aunt today to see if she's got the portrait photographed yet.

As for the "Parish Minute Books" you mention...  How can they be accessed?  Should I contact someone online?  Or do I need to send a snail mail inquiry?

Thanks, and Happy New Year, all!

Joe O

[shanew147]

...
As for the "Parish Minute Books" you mention...  How can they be accessed?  Should I contact someone online?  Or do I need to send a snail mail inquiry?
....

Church of Ireland Vestry Minutes Books are not available online and are held by the Representative Church Body Library in Rathfarnham, Co. Dublin.  Website is at : www.ireland.anglican.org/library

The books for Clontarf go back to 1815.

They dont do research on behalf on people, but it might be worth asking about the marriage details in general (i.e. the licence by guardian notation etc) and maybe asking nicely about the minute books - maybe you could talk someone into having a quick look for you.



Shane

[hallmark]

Banns of marriage were required in areas under British rule, including Wales, Scotland and Ireland. The banns consisted of an announcement in church for three Sundays prior to the wedding. This prevented people from marrying in haste and also gave any who might object time to learn of the match.

Giving a fortnights notice to the registrar is still a legal requirement in Britain. Three months is required in Ireland.  

Banns were a much more thorough way of asking anyone who might object to "speak now or forever hold your peace."
Valid objections;

• they are that either of the parties are already married,
  they are under the age of consent,
  they are too closely related
  if either has concealed injury or disease that would make it impossible for them to have children.

These are also grounds for annulment.

The marriage you got is just a standard marriage, they applied for a Marriage Licence like 1000's of others. The only "interesting" thing is that it says "with consent of Guardians" ...in that they didn't need anyone's consent as they were of full age and could do what they liked! Legally, they didn't need Guardians. (E.G. Was there something in her father's Will, if dead, stipulating this? etc)

There is no family history for the families attending, or even living in Clontarf in the Parish Records. To be "of the Parish" they didn't need to be living in the Parish for very long. At present it is 15 days!

You have new FACTS, a few new names but trying to join them to someone of 2 or 3 generations back in time with "family rumours" you have is an impossible task based on what you actually know. I've one of mine marrying there but it was also a one-off, they didn't live in Dublin nor were they "of the parish", they just decided to get married there by licence!

It's very doubtful if there will be much (if anything) in the minute books as they normally contain minutes of parish meetings to distribute funds, pay for repairs etc.

You really need to separate what you know from what you think and just deal in facts. Even "Lady Ann" could be a Pet name for her and not a title!




~~~~~~~~---------

Marriage by Licence Today;
One of the parties must be resident in the district for at least 15 full days immediately preceding the serving of notice. If the other party to the marriage resides in the same registrar’s district a minimum of 7 full days is required immediately preceding the serving of notice.

If both parties reside in different districts a residency of 15 full days in their respective districts is required. N.B. England is classed as a district for the purposes of serving notice.
If parties are serving notice in different districts, they should arrange to do so at approximately. the same time.

One of the parties must also have presided in the district for at least 15 full days before the licence is granted.

The marriage may take place 8 days after the serving of notice, subject to availability.
~~~~~~~~--------------


Even in the period of the Clontarf marriage it wasn't that much different, you will see many using a Hotel as their "residence" to comply with the rules!

Jessie may have only lived in Clontarf for a month or so "to be of the parish".... there's nothing special about getting a licence.

[hallmark]

With Ross as witnesses they COULD be guardians, just spotted this on a list while looking for someone else in Ontario..


Death; SUTHERLAND, Margaret Ross, f, August 13, 1908, age 93 years, Scotland, cause – blank, d/o don’t know, both born Scotland, infm – John M. Sutherland of Embro, West Zorra (Oxford Co.) 022594-08

yes, could just be coincidence but stranger things have happened!

[Pastmagic]

Yes, I agree that the minute books are a long shot - sometimes there is nothing, sometimes quite a lot. I referred to the Guardians before as possibly a term for the vestry, who would give consent to the marriage for one reason or another.

I know this is a very difficult one to get to grips with, but I am conscious of Joe's wish to find an explanation for his elderly relatives. The fact that the items and the stories  kept the family going through hard times,  is really moving.

Here is the 1901 census with an elderly Jessie Sutherland in Howth:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000022918/


Sutherland     Jessie    Aged, 84   Female   Boarder with Taylor family,   Presbyterian Religion, Born in Scotland   Can Read   -   Widow

Again a bit of a wildcard, but maybe the name Taylor might mean something to the Aunts?. The other thing is that most of the titled had portraits painted - perhaps lady Ann herself may give us a clue when we see it.

PM

[hallmark]

The only thing about that census is that she can read but not write, would she be boarding with a gardener's servant?

It's been pretty much established that "Lady Ann of Clontarf" didn't exist..  so who are we looking for? It is certainly clouding the waters as there is a mix of Fact and "Fiction".

To find an explanation for Joe's elderly relatives facts are needed, probably from Scotland. Apart from a possible note in the minutes there really isn't anything else in Clontarf records.

[Joseph L. Oliver]

Folks, could you please check me out on my math/generation figuring?

On my very first post, I stated:

“Lady Ann was Jesse Sutherland's great grandmother.  Lady Ann would have been born between 1752 and 1783.”

I also stated that my great grandmother, Jessie Koplik ne Curtis, said that Lady Anne was her 3rd great grandmother.

In the last half hour I've had a few moments of doubt where I broke out in a sweat.  Before I or you all do anything else, I'll post my figuring here.  Please, check me out on this.  I used all first born daughters to look at actual years between known generations, (averaging 25 years) and then used an average of 20 years for the unknown generations.

My cousin's daughter         born 32 years after her mom    1985
My cousin                 born 31 yrs after Aunt Pat           1953
My aunt Pat (ne Carlino)   born 20 yrs after her mom   1921
Alice Carlino   (ne Koplik)   born 24 yrs after her mom   1901
Jessie Koplik    (ne Curtis)    born 17 yrs after her mom   1875 (Lady Anne was her 3rd great grandmother)
Alice Curtis/Cuter (ne. Burke)   born 30 yrs after her mom   1858
Jesse Burke   (ne Sutherland)    born                     1828
mom of above:           born                     (guess) 1808 (b/w 1803 & 1813) 10 yr slop  (JK's GG #1)
mom of above:           born                      (guess)   1788 (b/w 1778 & 1798) 20 yr slop  (JK's GG #2)
Lady Anne:              born                      (guess)   1768 (b/w 1752 & 1783) 31 yr slop  (JK's GG #3)

Well I can't get this to format as a table, but I think it's readable anyway.  Is my figuring correct?

Joe