Lady Ann of Clontarf?

[shanew147]

I had a search through the free index on the IFHF/RootsIreland website for a James Burke born 1830+-5 to a father John. The pay-website covers some parishes in North and South County Dublin outside the area covered by IrishGenealogy. There was just one result with no middle name, RC and baptised 1833 and in the parish of Kingstown (Dun Laoghaire)


Shane

[Pastmagic]

Hi Everyone,

I tried for all variants of Jessie with and without Sophia in the 1841 Census, including Jess and Janet. See earlier post. There are about sixty women of the right age, - / + 2yrs. C. 15 would be Jessie's living in households where there was no male father. The ones I gave were the two best. No Jessie Sophia at all! Maybe one quick look on Scotlands People is warranted....

Have been throgh the list of all British Titles active and exant and can find none sounding remotely like Clontarf other than Rawson...

From previous experience I know that the people writing down the details used "labourer" sometimes in that period as occupation for Irish emigrants, irrespective of actual occupation.

Anyway, thanks for that info, maybe if we saw copies of the Naturalization Papers here we might spot someting? No rush Joe - its almost Christmas!

[Joseph L. Oliver]

You know, I was on Scotlands People a year ago looking for records of Jessie and parents.  Where the heck did I write that stuff down?

I'll check and get back.

I've just gotten a full page response back from a researcher from Clontarf History, and am checking to see if they are okay with me posting it here.  Nothing drastic.  Will post it as soon as I get the go ahead.

Regarding Jessie Sutherland's first name.  Have no idea if it was originally Jessie, Jesse, Jessica or Janet.  Or Bob.

Regarding naming patterns:  Well,

     My aunt with the name of Jessie is the first born daughter of Alice Carlino (ne Koplik). 

          Alice Koplik was the 1st born daughter of Jessie Koplik (ne Curtis)

                Jessie Curtis was the 1st born daughter of Alice Curtis (ne Burke)

As far as I know (there IS a 5 year gap between James and Jessie's marriage and the 1st birth that I've found), Alice Burke was the 2nd born daughter of Jessie Burke (ne Sutherland).  Alice's elder sister was Mary Helen Burke.

So I can't make out from this who Jessie is named after.


Don't know about the ring.  I'll ask. 

Naturalization papers, original copies?  I guess I could contact Cincinnati or to see if that's possible.

Jessie Sophia
Q.1 Is Jessie a shortening of Jessica?
Q.2 Given your naming patterns who was she named after?
Q.3 Are there assay office stamps on the ring which may help date it?

Burned out.  I'm going on vacation with my family for a week starting Saturday, so things are going to be nutz today.  May not be able to get back to this for a few days.  I will have my computer with me, but it would be bad form to have my head stuck in it too much.

Thanks, all.

Joe

[Pastmagic]

Hi Joe,

Don't blame you for feeling burnt out! I am still trawling for a link for Jessie or James with the various Contarf and wider Gentry, and so forth.

Really, I think two of your best chances,  on your side of the  pond,  is the dating, if possible, of the Portrait of Lady Ann with its accompaniments, and a going over with your mum and Aunts any stories they remember about the past - clues can turn up  in the fabric of the story, that might have meaning to us this side.

Maybe you should leave your computer at home!

PM

[Joseph L. Oliver]

PM et al:

Yes, I'm working on my cousins to get the ring looked at and the one siloughette scanned, an on my aunt to get someone to photo and email me the portrait.  Will let you know as soon as anything arrives.

I still have yet to hear if I can post the letter of the researcher from Clontafonline, but they mention something about Lady Anne being a myth, and that there never was an Earl of Clontarf.  That's kind of disturbing!

Perhaps I simply don't understand the context of this statement, but hopefully I'll hear back from them today and post the page.

Joe

[Pastmagic]

Hi Joe,

While we wait:

Shane - found these Burkes  in Shaw's Dublin City Directory 1850

John, 3 Little Mary St (hat mart)
John, 34 North King St (provision dealer)
John, 3 Synnott row (tenements - no detailed listing)
John, 26 Lower Temple St (bootmaker - spelt Bourke in street listing)
John, 17 Queen St (Esq.) (Only one qualifying as gentleman)
John, 30 Barrack St (dairy)
John, 10 Portland place (clerk)
John, 50 Henry St (cabinet maker)
John, 25 Upper Bridge St (Cashel hotel)
John, 26 Upper Bridge St (grocer)
John, 11 Whitefriar St (coach maker)
John, 79 Amiens St (grocer)
John, 39 Wicklow St (grocer)
John, 151 Church St (provision dealer)

http://www.dublin1850.com/dublin1850/index.html#B

Also:

Edward, 109 James' St (proprietor - Hog and Armour Inn - spelt Edmond in street listing)
Francis James Junior, 5 Grenville St (barrister - Hilary term 1839)
James, 51-52 Marlborough St (pawn broker)
F., 3 Talbot St (Esq.)

Rose
From the Law Directory (not listed at stated address)
A. O'Grady, 7 King's Inns quay (solicitor)
James, 32 Great Brunswick St (solicitor)

Sutherland
Mrs. A., 47 Great Brunswick St (occup not listed)
E., 17 South Richmond St (dentist)
Mrs., 15 Synge St (dressmaker)

However, http://www.libraryireland.com/DublinDirectory1850/s.php on line index  has this lot as well:

Sutherland, E. 17 Richmond street, South
   Mrs. 15 Synge street
   Mrs. A. 47 Brunswick street, Great Sutter,
   Robert, 3 Sherrard street, Lower Sutton,
   Arthur, 3 Chatham street
   Francis, 2 Christ Church place, and Copper alley
   Frederick, 19 Kildare street
   James, Greenfield, Harold's cross, and 12 Mary's abbey
   James, 76 Great Brunswick street
   Miss, 191 do.
   Mrs. 63 Manor street
   George, 33 Mabbot street
   William, 5 Phibsborough avenue

Mostly Northsiders!

John Burke, 27 Richmond street, South  ( Not very plausable for Clontarf Church, but  a Sutherland in the same street).


Joe, these are bits of info which may just tie in as we go along. It shows several families fairly close to Clontarf in 1850

http://www.araltas.com/features/burke/
Has an interesting Burke in Ohio.

[shanew147]

there's longer list of John Burkes in that Shaws listing than there is in either 1850 or '52 Thom's, although I only listed the possible 'Gentlemen' earlier.

I checked that Queen's Street address in Thom's 1852 and the John Burke has gone from #17 and a Mrs. Lawless is at the address

In Thom's 1850 the Queen street address is occupied by a Miss Mary Burke. A Mary Burke (with no Mrs or Miss) is listed in 1848. Unfortunately #17 is not listed in 1834 or 1843 - there's gap in the numbers

One other listing caught my eye in 1848... might be nothing.. a Francis J. Burke, 5 Grenville St. He's barrister. Could he be a relation and the J. be James ?
If so maybe that's where our James name came from - only the other way around ?

p.s. checked that Edward Burke, proprietor of the Hog and Armour Inn in 1852 and his business is at 25 Garden lane and 109 James' St.


Shane

just spotted that your listing mentions the Greville st Burke... and it is Francis James...

[Pastmagic]

Yes, Shane, I saw that too!

Another thought. Joe is running another thread for the Ohio end ,

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,501354.msg3585133.html#msg3585133

and I see there is a possibility that  either Jessie or James may be Catholic. In this case maybe they needed the consent of the Church Guardians to be married in Clontarf, especially as it was License not banns -  (Joe we are only five years off the introduction of Civil registration here in 1845 for C of I only) - which would explain the note on the registration. If so, it should be in the Minute Books, and possibly even their addresses if they were not in the parish. Wish I could pop into the Cof I library in Rathfarnaham!

Re Myth - There are items which must have originated somewhere, and there technically is one Viscount of Clontarf. Sometimes for hereditary reasons, Viscounts were also Earls, but not this one. And his daughter, called Ann, would have been known as Lady Ann. They and/or their many relatives intermarried with Burkes. Easy to see how confusion could creep in over seven generations. It is family folklore, and in my experience there is usually some truth and some distortion over time!
One of which could be that the name of the church got mistaken for her surname, or title.  In which case she could be lady Ann of anywhere! making Progress with Jessie and James Francis and the objects may get us there in the end!

PM
PS Jane Rose was as, Hallmark suggests, of the Mount Temple lot, maybe she organized it for them to marry at Clontarf. Still no joy on her!

 PPS Just discovered that in 1850 the Church was at Clontarf Castle ( Home of Viscont Clontarf) not where it is today! - and guess  who pops up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Ireland_Parish_of_Clontarf#The_nineteenth_century

[shanew147]

since it's a Church of Ireland marriage when it was the established church, it's possible that neither James nor Jessie were CofI. Once they were resident for a time in the parish beforehand they could apply to marry there. In a recent WDYTYA Dervla Kirwan's ancestors married in St. Peter's CofI in Dublin - they were Jewish & RC..



Shane