Lady Ann of Clontarf?

[shanew147]

other than the lack of Burke parish records in the area I've no concrete evidence for this  .. but my feeling is that the Burke family could have come from somewhere outside Clontarf, and the 'Lady Ann of Clontarf' title may be mixing up two timeframes. i.e. the location is correct for the 1850 marriage, but James' family came from another part of Co. Dublin... which is where the Lady Ann lived..

p.s. are we assuming that Lady Ann was an ancestor of James on the Burke side of the family ?


Shane

[shanew147]

just went back an re-read the first post in this thread it seems Lady Ann may have been on the Sutherland  (i.e. Scottish) side of the family... so maybe searching for details of Jesse's baptism and family details in Scotland would be worthwhile... although I think there may be quite a few Sutherland families in Scotland.

Lady Ann was Jesse Sutherland's great grandmother.  Lady Ann would have been born between 1752 and 1783.  It is fairly certain that Lady Ann was not the wife of a Duke:  it is said that she was the wife of the Earl of Glen Tarff/Clontarf.

Shane

[hallmark]

Well it started off looking by for the marriage, which was found. All that is known from that is that Jessie's father was Capt. John Sutherland and that Jessie was of full age.


Lady Ann was Jessie Sutherland's great grandmother, so John's grandmother. From there you'd really need to work out a  "guesstimate" for Jessie's birth, John's marriage etc and try to find them.

Jessie (Jessica?) was born 1829 at the latest as she was full age in 1850, so as Shanew suggests this would probably your best step to take at this stage and see what develops from there.

The only other thing is are there assay office stamps on the ring which may help date it?

[Pastmagic]

What has also been established is that someone of full age got married by Licence rather than banns, and had guardians who consented to the marriage.

(I wonder if she was tied by some inheritance to having  somebody's consent in order to marry?) Maybe you should contact the church and ask if they have any idea why?

    http://www.clontarf.dublin.anglican.org/

(Noticed they are on Twitter? - what next?)

The minute books from the parish do exist for the right year, so there might be an answer to some of the questions these facts raise.

Also, the name Clontarf turns out to be where Jessie herself married, to everybodies surprise.

Also, according to Burke's peerage,  John Rawson  of Clontarf was the only holder of the only title Clontarf in The Irish nobility. His grandaughter was therefore a Lady Ann,  Daughter of Lady Clontarf, (In the right time bracket)  The Daughter  married into the Guinness family. ( possibly knon locally as the ould clontarf wan and the young clontarf wan.. )While Jessie's US census returns give her birthpace as Scotland, there is no reason why her grandmother, Lady Ann should not have been Irish, given that the family tie her to the name Clontarf. There are several contenders for Lady Ann amongst the local families with Clontarf Connections, interelated closely to the original Rawsons. Lots of local rellies for Joe ...who I see already thinks it is the purveyor of pints...!

Jessie being born in Scotland, but daughter of an Army officer could have been visiting relatives or on a posting in Dublin with her family.

Jane Rose is a local name in  Clontarf,but I don't know if they had any titled family. At the same time, this story has travelled five or six generations, so parts of it may be wrong on dates.

When Joe gets the photo of the portrait - and maybe the other items - and puts them up here, maybe the date of her clothes will sort that one out.
 There are good guides for silver and gold jewellery marks on line too. It is possible that lady Clontarf was the first owner, and she passed them to her granddaughter. But this is speculation.

For Joe the problem is with the slender info he has on Jessie, getting her birth cert on  Scotlands People is like trying for Mary Murphy born Ireland  c. 1828, especially as the population was so vast!

Maybe Shane could try Thom's for the Witnesses - Jane Rose and Edward Burke?   Any  Dublin Rose? Also once Joe has the photos we might get more ideas to help him. Hallmark,I don't know anything about The Roses re Title - did they have one?  On your thinking Jessie's mother's maiden name might be Rose...
One possible one to check on Scotlands People Search.

I accept totally that the Clontarf wedding is fortuitous and they may all be from some out post of the Empire with a Clontarf sounding name...

Monica, I know why you said you were loosing sleep on this one! I would love to get it sorted for Joe's Mother and Aunts - I keep on thinking of that wedding dress...is she wearing it in the portrait? And hope Joe has found Clontarf Church on Google Earth. Nice spot to Marry in.

Shane, Joe's family oral tradition says the ring etc came down by the female line, but if in one generation there were no girls, then it might be the male line, which is why we are trying for both!

[hallmark]

...but if in one generation there were no girls, then it might be the male line, which is why we are trying for both!  

Very doubtful, if women get their hands on Jewellery they keep it!!   

How many Jessie Sophia Sutherlands can there be, born Scotland, with father John, born 1825 to 1829 (estimate) in Scotland? If, for example, there were 10, what information would there be on those records? Enough to differentiate between them?


From memory... the Roses were same family as Rose Estate in Monaghan and Mount Temple wasn't a 3 bed semi with a little garden.

On the original post there is doubt about Glenn Tarff or Clontarf, is it even certain she was Lady Ann of Clontarf?? I'm just going by what was posted.


If I was searching for Jessie I'd be also using Jessica Sophie... is Jessie a Full name?

So, using naming patterns who would Jessie Sophia be named after? As possible clues!

[Pastmagic]

Hi Hallmark, I don't have a sub to Scotlands People,so cannot do birth look ups.

In the 1841  Scotland Census: Can't find any John Army Captain at all. This is the one that comes closest :
Johen Sutherland, age 55 Born 1788, Wife Margaret aged 51, born
1786, Dau Jessie  Sutherland aged 13, Son Watter( their spelling) Mclean Sutherland    
 They are living in Forfar in the County of Angus, at Sprout Street.
His occupation is Mesenger at Arms. can't pick him up in 1851.

(A messenger-at-arms is an officer of the Scottish Court of Session, responsible for serving documents and enforcing court orders throughout Scotland. Messengers-at-arms must have a commission as a sheriff officer. They don't exsit in Irleland, but could a contarf Vicar turn that into Army Captain? They were known as "Officers of the King".)                                             

Next closest is:John Sutherland, age 53 b. 1798
Wife    Ann Sutherland

All born Halkirk, Caithness Harpsdale. Occupation given as farmer 7 Acres   
 including Dau Jessie Sutherland    23,   plus  6 siblings. She is a bit old, but this is the 1841 census.  There is more detail if Joe wants it, but nothing to really make a connection.

However, there are lots of Jessie Sutherlands of the right age in schools, in households where there is no father on the night of the census, in households with other people etc.

No Jessie Sophia anywhere. Tried all the variants Lots of Janets with father John. mostly crofters and ag labourers, so hard to imagine an Army Captain...unless... he got tided up for the register, as happens!

Joe, when did they arrive in the US and where? Bet they bypassed Ellis Island! Could they have been in Ireland for a while after the marriage?

Hope you have recovered from the shock of the missing censuses.....PM

Found one Edward Burke as proprietor of the Hog and Armour Inn (Sp?) in  Thom's Directory of Ireland 1850. Hard to Read Google books version. No JFB though. PM

[Joseph L. Oliver]

PM, Hallmark:
 

All I can say right now in answer to some confusion:

In the 1880 US Census, Jessie and James report the following:
Jessie was born in 1828 in Scotland.  Her father and mother were both born in Scotland. 
James F. was born in 1830 in Dublin, Ireland.  Both parents were born in Ireland.

Regarding their arrival in the US:  from my US thread searching for info on James and Jessie Burke, "Ohio Susan" found two transcripts on An...try that is not 100% reliable, though they seem likely to be our subjects.  Unfortunately An...try does not show the original document. ( If anyone knows another source to view the doc, please let me know).

M (For Mr.?) Burke, (21 yo, laborer, male), 
Jessie Burke (23 yo, laborer, female)

Emigrated to the US from Liverpool, arrived Philadelphia Oct. 3, 1850 on the Bark Falcon.

The facts that they departed from Ireland and arrived in Philadelphia jive with James' Naturalization application that I found.  The ages are both correct.  The date seems likely, considering they were married April of 1850.  The transcripts do not indicate whether they were traveling together or not.

My God, you people are amazing.

Joe

     

[hallmark]

Jessie Sophia was born in 1828 in Scotland.  Her father was John and mother (?) were both born in Scotland. 

Q.1 Is Jessie a shortening of Jessica?
Q.2 Given your naming patterns who was she named after?
Q.3 Are there assay office stamps on the ring which may help date it?


IF the census ages are correct there can't be all that many Jessie Sophia Sutherlands born in 1828 to a father John!

[aghadowey]

In Scotland Jessie can be used as a form of Janet.