Lady Ann of Clontarf?

[shanew147]

I cant see any problem with your message.. maybe just a little bit enthusiastic and excited about all the details, which is good thing!

I think you next step is probably evaluating all the details to see how all this links in with your Burke line and also see if all this helps answer your original query re 'Lady Ann of Clontarf'

At least you now have Jessie and James father's names and occupations which means you have a chance to work back in time. I suspect that both families may have come from outside Clontarf originally, so you may have to widen your search area back up again to trace further back in time.

Meanwhile I'll keep an eye out for any further Burke or Sutherland details in Clontarf & Dublin..


Shane

[Joseph L. Oliver]

Thanks Shane (and Monica in a PM):

Will have to lay off a bit as Christmas is approaching.  Will try to get a few record requests off to the Cincinnati Archdiocese before then, but that usually takes a month or two for a response.

Monica, you asked about kids of James Francis and Jessie Sutherland for the sake of determining naming patterns.  I'll go even further to show you the whole lineup as I currently understand it:

Lady Anne of Clontarf, b. (guess) 1768 (b/w 1752 & 1783)
-------------------------------
Daughter:                b. (guess) 1788 (b/w 1778 & 1798)
--------------------------------   
Daughter:                b. (guess) 1808 (b/w 1803 & 1813)
     or Son John Burke

If daughter:  she marries John Burke (b. ?? Ireland).  They have at least one child:
If son (John Burke), he marries _________  _________ (b?).  They have at least 1 kid:
--------------------------------
James Francis Burke b. 1830

James marries Jesse Sophia Sutherland b. 1828.  They marry in Clontarf, Ireland 1850 and move soon thereafter to Cincinnati, Ohio, and have 3 kids:
--------------------------------
 Mary Helen Burke b. 1855   
 Alice Burke b. 1858       
 John James Burke b. 1861

Mary: does not marry, dies childless
Alice: marries Charles Curtis, has only one child:  Jessie b. 1875
John: can't trace
--------------------------------
Jessie Curtis marries Joseph Koplik in Cincinnati 1896.  They move to Des Moines, Iowa and have three children:       
--------------------------------
Allen,  b. ?, dies in infancy 
Alice Esther,  b. 1901. 
Milton A., b. 1905

Allen dies in infancy
Alice marries Leo Carlino, has 4 children
Milton A. has an illegitimate son with an unkn. Irish girl, name thought to be David, who is untraceable. 
--------------------------------------
Alice Esther Carlino's kids:
     Jessie (Grace),
     Alice Ruth,
     Patrick,
     Dawn,

-------

That's it for now.  Hope you all have a great holiday.

Joe o

 

[MonicaL]

Season's greetings to you Joe. Let's hope 2011 brings lots of new information for you 

Monica

[Joseph L. Oliver]

Okay....

I know I said it can wait, but, I can't help it....  This goes round and round in my head each night so I have to take some action.

So the marriage records say that Jessie Sophia Sutherland and James Francis Burke got married at the Church of Clontarf.  The record says they are both members of that parish.  Since Jessie was from Scotland, and since James has reported previously that he was born in Dublin in 1830, now I want to find out which church in Dublin James' folks were married in, so that I can gain some ground.

I've worked out the likely names of J & J's mothers by employing the Irish naming pattern. 

Mary Helen b. 1855
Alice           b. 1858
John James b. 1861

IRISH NAMING PATTERNS
1st son       would be named after the father's father (meaning James F's father would be named John, which is true.)

1st daughter    would be named after the mother's mother (meaning Jessie's mother is named Mary)

2nd daughter    would be named after the father's mother (meaning James F's mother is named Alice)


Would it have been possible that the children were named utilizing the Scottish naming pattern that Jessie might have insisted on???

If so, then
 
SCOTTISH NAMING PATTERNS
   Same as above for boys.
   
   1st daughter    would be named for the father’s mother. (Mary Helen)
   2nd daughter    would be named for the mother’s mother (Alice)

So, Jame's Francis Burke, b. 1830 Dublin
     Father John Burke, b. abt. 1810 Ireland
          Marries Alice? or Mary? __________, Ireland, abt. 1830

Jessie Sophia Sutherland, b. 1828 __________ Scotland
     Father John Sutherland., b. abt 1808 Scotland
            Marries Mary? or Alice? ___________, Scotland, abt. 1830

So.....

Can anyone advise how the heck I set about finding the right churches to inquire at?

Joe

[shanew147]

The problem with James birth is that 'Dublin' is not very specific. It can mean the city, county or suburbs. I would recommend searching for his baptism before trying to find his parents marriage, as there are many Burke families and you will need all the clues you can find to help confirm any possible matches.

Probably the best place to start the search is with the Dublin City parishes online on www.irishgenealogy.ie

Naming patterns can sometimes provide clues, but not everyone followed them.


Shane

[aghadowey]

Not sure where you got the "Scottish naming pattern" from but my understanding was always that 1st daughter was after maternal grandmother, 2nd after paternal grandmother, 3rd after mother, etc.
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?561
http://www.halmyre.abel.co.uk/Family/naming.htm (mentions reversing order of 1st two children for both boys and girls)

[Joseph L. Oliver]

aghadowey:

On re-checking my Scottish naming pattern source, I realize it gave conflicting info.  You are correct.  So the Scottish and Irish patterns agree as far as Jame's and Jessie's kids are concerned, correct?

And Shane, yes, after writing that email yesterday, I was wondering how generic Jame's citing of "Dublin" might be.  So...  Since he was living in Clontarf when he was married to Jessie, I would love to comb through the same Clontarf Church records to see if they contain Jame's baptism and birth record, and perhaps his parent's marriage records.

Thank you both for your insight.  It's very helpful.

Regards,

Joe O

[shanew147]

........
Since he was living in Clontarf when he was married to Jessie, I would love to comb through the same Clontarf Church records to see if they contain Jame's baptism and birth record, and perhaps his parent's marriage records.
.....

The Clontarf Church of Ireland records go back to about 1808 and are included in the IrishGenealogy website. I did have a look, but saw no sign of a James Francis Burke baptism c1830...

There's only a very small number of Burke records in the parish - none seem to have any connection to your Butlers as far as I can see.


Shane   (edit - corrected surname typo)

[MonicaL]

Just a point to note on children's names and using them as a guide. We have a gap of at least 5 years between James and Jessie's marriage in 1850 and the birth of Mary Helen in 1855. They were a young couple at marriage who likely had more children. One of the reasons I was trying to see whether we could find them in either 1860 and 1870 censuses was to check whether any more children showed, particularly any born between 1850-54. Failed miserably to find them in those years though in the US 

Monica