Lady Ann of Clontarf?

[Joseph L. Oliver]

Hi Roger:

Well, pie may not fix everything, but making/eating pie is pretty good at lifting one's spirits.  I was about to do so after the thread went silent after my last post 

And, regarding "JS Sutherland":  so sorry if my slip of a finger led you down a deep rabbit hole.

But... let's not discount your "JS Sutherland" too quickly.  Based on your observation of "Mary Ellen" and "Mary Helen", it's possible he is in the running.  To the ear, Ellen can certainly sound like Helen, and I have noted an entry in the WCD or that census listing where Mary Helen was entered as Mary Ellen.   "John S" could certainly be taken for "John F", so who knows, perhaps you are on to the right person with that particular "John S".  Wouldn't that be something?

A rather funny example of this is a Cincinnati census listing written and transcribed as "Cartes, Charles".  This guy is actually Charles Curtis.  But I can just see the census taker trying to understand the poor fellow repeating his last name, which to him sounded like "Kar-tess" or "Kor-tess".

Regards,

Joe   

[despair]

There is one flaw in the following scene,the statement that John Sinclair Sutherland,son of George Sinclair Sutherland of Brabster died without issue-but as I think the article has his death date wrong,perhaps that statement is in error also.Here is his pedigree:

http://www.fionamsinclair.co.uk/genealogy/Caithness/Brabster.htm

I hve searched the FIBIS database and there is no entry for 1844.The 1846 entry matches the newspaper article -"James S Sutherland" and the tone is that of someone important in the community(Brabster is in Caithness as per the report).

Further,note that he has a brother James.Here is an entry for the Dublin Directory of 1850 that has a James Sutherland and Miss Sutherland together- a good fit for a guardian and his ward?

http://www.libraryireland.com/DublinDirectory1850/s.php

(There is an entry for what looks like Francis James Burke,but that could genuinely be someone of that name.

I have a whimsical suggestion for the Burkes but will have to leave that till later today.

I'll also see if the above has any connection with the alternative countess I found.I've always been slightly concerned that the portrait you have appears to be of a very young lady-for the Duchess of Charlemont that would mean abut 1800.I know it is a huge ask,but did you suggest removing the frame?

Regards
Roger

[despair]

In looking to see if there were other occupants with James and Miss Sutherland,I've noticed that they are actually at different addresses in the same road.I'm not sure where this leaves the argument-certainly not stronger.

Regards
Roger

[despair]

In place of the whimsy,I think I'd be better off looking for the family of John Burke Esq. and Mary Helena Burke referred to here.

Regards
Roger

[MonicaL]

Roger, wish I could help you more on the Irish resource side but I have little to no experience of researching there (I used a professional researcher when I first started for my Irish folk). Most of my breakthroughs in Ireland are simply lucky strikes 

Have we talked about a John Burke and Mary Helena previously on this thread (it is so long, it gets harder to find stuff again unfortunately).

I found this https://sites.google.com/site/edmundotoolevc/ireland/family-profiles with those names in Dublin. (Added: Mary Helena's father is showing as 'John Burke, a Merchant. (Father of Mary Helena Burke - from Marriage record)' Marriage in 1839....so not sure, again because of father's occupation whether this is just a blank and too random  ).

Monica

[despair]

Mary Helen was the name of Jessie and James daughter(their first child).James father was a John Burke gentleman.
Given that the Mary Helena in the article married in 1839,therefore born c 1815-20(?)I thought James Francis circa 1829 might be her brother.
Thanks for the "merchant" reference,that might help identify him in the 1850 directory

Regards
Roger

[MonicaL]

Roger, I was trying to start to do a short summary of key points, which is good now given post has revitalised  However, parents' evening approaches for No.2 son, I need to disappear!

One thing to remember is that we have a good 4/5 year gap for the first recorded child, Mary Helen in 1855 in Cincinnati. Joe's US post certainly likely places James and Jessie in Cincy from around 1851 from the City directories (link to that post earlier here).

We are misising some children therefore. If they followed naming pattern, they could well have repeated important names if first child with that name died early. The problem with adding to this theory is that we have no trace of them in the US until 1880...other than likely directory entries. This is a problem with trying to trace back  We are missing very likely some further info but can't guess this given that the records are not helping. Joe, I know you have said you have tried to follow up on local Cincy records but no joy so far.

It is such a hard...and obsessive...search 

Monica

[hasta]

Might be an idea to order a copy of the civil registration of the marriage. I've never had to get one prior to 1864, since my lot are all RC. But I presume the process was the same, as in someone had to go to the registration office in person and give the information. Hopefully it could offer a more precise address than just  'Clontarf'. I've never seen anything as vague as that on a post 1864 Catholic marriage
The details are:

Dublin North
Volume:    5
Page Number:    39

[Joseph L. Oliver]

I can't begin to express how impressed and grateful I am with all of your hard work and obvious dedication to this quest of mine.  Very humbling.  How can I ever repay you?

On the subject of JF&JS Burke's kids:  I've conducted a fairly thorough search of the WCD listings and have noted that at the JF Burke residence there is often an Alice Burke¹ and Charles Burke.  (I've attached a 1 to her name to make the following clearer).  This Alice Burke¹ is the wife of Charles Burke, as indicated by late WCD listings after Charles died (she thereafter is listed as "Alice Burke, wid Charles").

1872 is the first year I find an Alice Burke associated in the WCD with JF&JS Burke:  this time with "Mrs. Jessie Burke", shown at the same address.  (it probably is not Jessie's daughter Alice²:  THAT Alice would be only 14 years old, which is pretty young for a WCD listing).

1875 Alice ² Curtis (ne Burke) is 17yo.  She gives birth to Jessie J. Curtis. 

1879 is the first year that a Charles Burke is listed at the same address as Alice¹ Burke.  From then until 1894 Alice¹  is shown very frequently living at the same address as JS&JF.  Charles is living with them less frequently.

All this to say that I think this husband of Alice¹ Charles Burke is a relative of JF Burke.  Maybe a brother?  Son?  Uncle?  Who knows.  I can't seem to nail down any census info on Charles and Alice.

I am cross eyed tired, so if any of this makes sense it's a miracle.  Good night all.

Joe