Lady Ann of Clontarf?

[MonicaL]

The two 1841 that you added a snippet for Joe. Remembering always that the 1841 census was the most limited in terms of info. Relationships within the household were not supposed to be included and ages for those over 15 years old were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years:

Jessie aged 13 in Loth Sutherland, she shows as a FS (female servant). A Donald Sutherland, 45 and a tailor shows as head.

The other entry I remember looking at before. There was a reason why I stopped looking at it (can't remember now, would have to re-do searches - maybe I missed something then?) but did start thinking it had some potential given the father's occupation:

Johen Sutherland 55, Messenger At Arms, b. Scotland
Margt Sutherland 51, b. Scotland
Jessie Sutherland 13
Walter Mclean Sutherland 11
Address:Spout Street, Forfar

A good accurate site to also check for the 1841 transcriptions is http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl which is particularly good now for coverage for that year (just remember to click the right year tab at the front. Searching for a Jessie and a Janet (as Roger has mentioned above) brings up quite a few entries. I have been searching for a Janet/Jessie b. 1828 +/- 2 yrs. I know we have a potential birth date from Jessie stone, but this does not guarantee accuracy unfortunately....but every little helps1

Monica

[MonicaL]

Re-doing some searches I did before. The reason I discounted the Forfar 1841 family was that I thought I could see who I thought were Jessie and Walter in 1851:

Jessie Sutherland, 22 house servant b. Forfar living in Perth
Walter Sutherland, lodger, 21, shoemaker b. Forfar living in Leys Mill, Angus

Monica

[despair]

It looks very likely that the"Captain" referred to as the brother of George Sutherland of Forse is Francis and that the other brother John did die in 1846.Back to the drawing board..........

Regards
Roger

[dathai]

Sorry i have just come upon this post and have not read it all but i wonder is this of any help to you,
James Caulfield 1st Earl of Charlemont 1728 to 1799 lived at Marino House he was born in Dublin according to Wikipedia article on him and his forebears.

[despair]

I did wonder whether Edward in the following was the same person as the witness and perhaps a brother.He is of about the right age and may have called his son after the father.I had hoped to trace him earlier,perhaps with his wife.This could lead in turn to a marriage and possibly the family.
However I'm having trouble finding him earlier.It's a very long shot anyway.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M8MB-1LH

Regards
Roger

[MonicaL]

It is a possibility isn't it, Roger  I have to admit, I have spent a bit today retracing my steps and trying to add to what we have. I still struggle with the lack of info on James and Jessie's early years in Cincinnati, Ohio. Apart from 3 children's births between 1855-61, we have nothing else apart from the 1881 census and directory listings. I think this is a good summary from Joe on the American board and picks up on possible and likely directory listings www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=501354.0

It is odd that we cannot pick up anything else, and I have spent many hours in the past and again now  going through the possibilities 

I have today also picked up on a Sutherland family. There is a Thomas Sutherland born c. 1787 (I think from Edinburgh going by one census entry in London in 1861)and wife Janet, no children I can find so far. Then a brother to Thomas, a James Sutherland born c. 1776 in Scotland on his second marriage to an Elizabeth Watt from 1826. James Sutherland had a daughter Jessie Sophia Sutherland in the later 1830s in London. There is also an entry for a John James Sutherland born c. 1826 in Scotland in the 1841 census entry for the household which I am not sure if a son to James or a nephew. Both James and Thomas Snr.s show as Merchants (wine?) by occupation and in business together in London from before 1840s-51. Both show as retired by 1851, and living in the same household, with James' family and servants. James dies c. 1855.

It was the link to names of Jessie Sophia Sutherland and a John James Sutherland that made a connection for me to our James Francis Burke and Jessie Sophia Sutherland, who also had a John James Burke in 1861. Can't break through though to a possible sibling called John Sutherland, who was an army Captian, had a daughter Jessie Sophia in 1828 etc...frustration 

Monica

[Joseph L. Oliver]

Oh, man...  So much to chew on and so many paths to go down on.

Not to discount or disrespect any work you all have done, and I know this pursuit is rarely linear, but my brain needs some focus, and I feel a responsibility as the initiator of all this wonderful activity to manage my eager troops.

So, I am choosing to focus on James Francis Burke and his parents, and will take my lead from Roger's mention of naming patterns. 

Yes, Roger:  J&J's first child was Mary Helen.  Let's then assume that Mary was the name of JF Burke's mother, (and that Helen was the name of JS Sutherland's mother).

So the documents closest to JF's wedding record will be
1st:  JF's 1841 Census records.
2nd:  JF's 1830 baptism record. 

I am pretty sure he is Roman Catholic based on the fact that all church records for him in the US are RC. (From their marriage record I am pretty sure that JS Sutherland is Protestant.  It is also interesting and perhaps telling that when Jessie Sophia Burke died, James placed her in a non-Catholic cemetery).

Alternatively (before or after Jessie and James's marriage):  Death of Mary Burke spouse of John Burke and visa-versa

So let's focus the probabilities of "John and Mary Burke, Roman Catholic" into a more focused search for James's 1830 baptism and '41 census record.

Joe

[Joseph L. Oliver]

whoops!  Just corrected Jame's birth year in the above to "1830".  Sorry.

[despair]

I've been a bit quiet,not because I disagree with your approach,I'm just having trouble finding credible candidates!
Considering Ireland first,this was obviously a time of great upheaval with landowners("gentlemen?") affected as well as the general population.The following caught my eye as timely with the "correct" parents.The trouble is the Irishgenealogy site which is available doesn't cover Galway to check baptisms.I'll see if there is anything on RootsIreland.

http://archive.thetablet.co.uk/article/7th-december-1850/15/imbrium-ea

I noticed also that on the USA census there is a Mary E-is this perhaps Mary Ellen  as a variant of Mary Helen,giving an alternative family name to look for?

There are so many "Captain John Sutherlands" to look at -my brain is also hurts and in my case "pie doesn't fix everything".
I noticed that you referenced JS Sutherland in your last post.Where does the intermediate S come from?The reason I am asking is that I have been tracing a Captain John Sutherland of the 56th Regiment,Bengal Native Infantry.In a newspaper announcement of his death in India(Nov 1846,reported 1847) he is referred to as John S Sutherland.(he is not to be confused with the 16th Laird of Forse,who dies in Feb 1846).He is of interest perhaps,because his death might explain the need for guardianship.I have found him in India in the mid to late 1820s,which,if Jessie was born there would explain the difficulty in finding a birth/baptism/census record.Having said that I might have expected to find somewhere in the FIBIS records something akin to "....to the lady of Captain John Sutherland a daughter...".From my limited experience names are not usually given.However so far I have not even found such a statement.Probably entirely unconnected anyway there is a baptism record for John Sutherland in 1794 to Robert "Sutherland or Ross".I have no idea where this duality originates.

More headache......

Regards
Roger