Lady Ann of Clontarf?

[despair]

I've done the reverse-the name seems to be clearly Ross(not Boss?),unless this is  a local variant spelling of Rose.I suppose if you accept a non blood line connection it doesn't matter,but the evidence is too weak to make any form of conclusion or announcement in my mind.It's the old maxim-"the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."There is also the possibility of a family connection with Ross(?) and/or a Ross,rather than Rose, connection with "Lady Ann".
On the question of pure identity,rather than connection,is there no evidence of an artist's name on any of the artefacts?A known association of an artist would provide supporting evidence.I don't suppose the painting could be de-framed to look?
I also wondered about timing of receipt of the artefacts.Do you believe they came  into the family at the time of the marriage of James and Jessie?If so,they would not have been a legacy as the 2nd Countess lived beyond their departure for the USA(assuming this was in the 1850s-I can only find a transcription of the Falcon manifest not a copy of the original).

I will keep on looking for alternative explanatiions.

Regards
Roger

[despair]

Not much help,but here is a copy of the original manifest.It looks like there is no meaning to the occupation as the description has been applied once to the whole page.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18414-27253-11?cc=1908535&wc=M9SD-B85:n90033921

Whereas previously I had associated Jane Rose with Ireland,perhaps as it is Ross,she will be associated with Scotland,as per the marriage record.Perhaps,even,she is a guardian(could John Sutherland be dead?)

Regards
Roger

[Joseph L. Oliver]

Roger:

First of all, thank you VERY MUCH for rooting out the original ship's manifest from the FALCON.  Wow!!!  So cool to have that document!  Once again, RootsChat rocks!

I'm very curious about some of the points you bring up:

Are you saying that Jane Ross is shown as from Scotland on the marriage record?  I've looked at the marriage record for Burke Sutherland and Jane Ross's marriage, but I don't see that association. 

And yes, I guess it is entirely possible that Jane Ross is Jessie Sutherland's guardian, and that Jessie's father is dead.  Tragic for Jessie but that would help to narrow down all the "John Sutherlands b. Scotland circa 1800" I've been looking for.

Boy I wish I could find a military record for Captain in the Army John Sutherland.  I've looked but so far cannot find such a thing.

My cousin has looked at only the front of the portrait:  no signature.  Her sister now has the portrait and is in DC, and I will press her to bring it in to an expert to have it examined.

Your observation that James and Jessie left Ireland in 1850 while Lady Anne Caulfield was still alive, at 70 years old, is very interesting.  In that scenario, I think it very likely that there was a very direct connection, friendship or bloodwise, between the Lady and James and Jessie.  It's April, J&J are young, getting married, and everyone knows they are leaving for the states. "Oh, going to America?  Well here, I'm an old lady:  I don't need this dress anymore and your lovely wife looks great in it."  Or, maybe the Lady had made a gift to the bride before her marriage with a wedding dress.  Who knows?  "And take this portrait and this ring.  I've got others and you've always liked them." 

James and Jessie are shown on the manifest carrying two "boxes"; steamer trunks I assume.  It seems probable that Lady Anne's articles were in Jessie's trunk:  a dress, portrait, and siloughettes at least (Jessie was probably wearing the ring).  Could be that Jessie's trunk was the one my great grandmother Jessie opened to show Lady Anne's dress to my aunt back in the 1930's. (My aunt remembers the trunk as a typical steamer style:  rounded lid, tray on top).  But when Jessie lifted the top tray out of the trunk, a cloud of dust filled the air as the dress had disintegrated.

Speculation, perhaps, but not without merit.  I love how things are coming into focus.

Much appreciation,

Joe



 

[MonicaL]

I so, so wish that I could find the name of JF Burke's mother.  Why would JF and his new wife Jessie  include their father's names but not their mother's names on their wedding record?  How very rude!

Unfortunately marriage entries for this period did only include father's name. Even after the start of official registration in Ireland and also England & Wales, this practice continued. Not so in Scotland where mother and father's full names, including mother's maiden name, were included post 1855.

Great info, Roger! Joe, you are sounding re-energised after your short absence 

Just a thought. This thread is so long now, hard for new people to catch up with everything unless they read from the beginning. Might be worth pulling together a key point summary of findings, 10-15 bullets points perhaps, of where everything is at which can be added to or modified depending what comes up next.

Monica

[despair]

No,I'm not saying that Jane is shown as from Scotland,I have inferred it as she is the witness associated with Jessie who is said to be from Scotland.Ross is hardly a rare name in Scotland.
I.too,have searched extensively for a military record but nothing with a strong claim.I did wonder about George Sutherland Esq given as father of Augusta Jessie Sutherland at Clontarf in 1861.His pedigree is under "Genealogies" on FamilySearch(his wife was nee Sheppard).He comes from the Sutherlands of Forse,connected to the Sutherland Fencibles/93rd Foot?.He did have a brother called John who died in 1846 unmarried.I did wonder whether he could still be the father,though I haven't been able to establish him as a captain either!
There are lots of references to "Captain John Sutherland" on "googling",but finding an association is another matter.
Similar frustration applies to the Burke family.Given the grave details he should have been born late July 1829.I have found a "Latinised"RC record for Jacobum,son of Joannis and Margaritam in Roscommon Sept 1829(6weeks from birth to baptism?).I looked at this because there is a burial record for Margaret Burke at Clontarf in 1856,but she does seem a little(but not impossibly) old.
Again,not enough evidence to get excited.

Regards
Roger

[Joseph L. Oliver]

Monica:

Point well taken.  I've recently been wondering if I need to collapse all the threads I've created for Lady Anne into one.  That makes my head hurt, but you are right, I need to condense years of information into something more succinct.

Roger:

I understand now about Jane Ross and connection to Scotland.

Blessed with so many ancestors with very common names, yes, very frustrating trying to locate our targets!.

And regarding your saying that "Similar frustration applies to the Burke family.  Given the grave details he should have been born late July 1829":  do you have burial information on James Burke, Jessie's husband?

Joe

 

[MonicaL]

Joe, just adding link to new US post www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=678048.0. See you have the death dates now for James and Jessie (don't think we had them before on the earlier posts). I would imagine nothing of note on their death registrations and burial details etc. or you would have mentioned. Any ages at death to confirm what we have seen so far?

Monica

[despair]

Joe appears to be off line at the moment,so I think these are the records:-

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=77408029

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=burke&GSfn=jess&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSst=37&GScntry=4&GSob=n&GRid=73821380&df=all&

Regards
Roger

[MonicaL]

Thank you Roger. My, very precise dates there coming through for births. We didn't have this before. Quite something to see their gravestones after all this time...

Monica