ROMAIN/ROMANS look up request.

[maureeno138]

John Neate Romans came to Australia with his family in 1878 including his father and mother George Romans and Emma Romans nee FISHER and their children minus Eliza. The passenger index has the surname as ROMANS. Our research has George being born in Collingbourne, Wiltshire.
I have a George ROMAIN married Emma FISHER at Church of Hounslow Middlesex. This has been provided to me as the father of my John Neate Romans (b 1870  d 1942 birth certificate has where born as Collingbourne Kingston and Father noted as residing in the same)
I am trying to confirm the Father of George Romans/Romain as John Neate ROMANS as i have a transcription of a NSW death certificate for George Romans from Wiltshire county Middlesex died 1898 in Adelong where the family resided that clearly notes his father as John Neate ROMANS and his mother as Emma SMITH. It also notes his spouse as Emma Smith (also fits as her mothers maiden name is Fisher and her fathers surname is Smith.) My John Neate is listed as a living son. Other children include Jemima, William, Martha, George, Annie M.
The family story has a surname change but as to the exact reason i am unable to determine so when ROMANS goes back to become ROMAIN it did not seem odd.
But i am starting to think this ROMAIN connection may in fact be an error in the research and that George Romans is a different person all together, however i was provided with the marriage certificate for George ROMAIN and Emma Fisher. My attempts at trying to clear this up have failed. Any chance a guru is willing to take up the challenge and shed some light on this riddle?
I would be very appreciative if some one could assist.

Thanking you very much. Verlie

[[Ray]]

Hi

George Romans from Wiltshire county Middlesex died 1898

Would you explain? Wiltshire is one county, Middlesex is another and not particularly close geographically.

Ray

[Valda]

Hi

Though George Romain married Emma Fisher at Holy Trinity Hounslow 23rd September 1860 when both put a dash for the information for their fathers (George signed Emma made her mark) this family seems very much a Wiltshire family not a London/Middlesex family. The absence of father's names on the marriage certificate would indicate both were illegitimate.

1871 census RG10 1942 folio 35

George Romans 39 Head Married Ag lab Collingbourne Wiltshire
Emma Romans 34 Wife Married Collingbourne Wiltshire
Eliza Fisher 19 Daughter Field Labour Collingbourne Wiltshire
Jemima Romans 8 Daughter Collingbourne Wiltshire
William Romans 6 Son Collingbourne Wiltshire
Martha Jane Romans 4 Daughter Collingbourne Wiltshire
John Neat Romans 1 Son Collingbourne Wiltshire

Births Mar 1870   ROMANS  John Neat    Pewsey  5a 180


1861 census RG9 772 folio 20
Thompsons Terrace Isleworth Middlesex
George Romans 28 Head Lodger Married Labourer Collingbourne Wiltshire
Emma Romans 29 Wife Married Collingbourne Wiltshire
Eliza Fisher 9 Daughter Collingbourne Wiltshire


1851 census HO107 1844 folio 385
Aughton Collingbourne Kingston Wiltshire
Ann Mathews 43 Head Married Malters wife Collingbourne Kingston Wiltshire
George Mathews 20 Son Malter Collingbourne Kingston Wiltshire
George Neate 18 Nephew Ploughman Collingbourne Kingston Wiltshire
William Romans 80 father-in-law Widower Pauper formerly ag lab Chilsdon Wiltshire



I can move your post to the Wiltshire board if you wish to help you pursue the lines further back in that county.



Regards

Valda
co-moderator London and Middlesex

[[Ray]]

Hi

(Well done Valda, went to make a cuppa and you'd done it "all" by the time I sat down again)

Ray

[Valda]

Hi Ray

I got my coffee before I sat down at the computer - seems to have gone a bit cold though!


Baptism Collinbourne Kingston
23rd October 1832
George Romans - mother Sophia Romans

Seems a confusion on George's Australian death certificate between his wife and his mother.


Regards

Valda

[Sharon01]

Hi,

Well at least we all have our coffee now.

The dates do not quite tie in but the mothers name does.

Emma Fisher baptised on 25/12/1831 at Collingbourne-Kingston, Wiltshire.
Mother's Name Jemimah Fisher

Sharon

[Valda]

Hi


The reason George was in Middlesex


Marriages Mar 1857    
Romans  Sophia     Uxbridge  3a 29    
Sambrook  Samuel     Uxbridge  3a 29    
  

1861 census RG9 773 folio 85
Bath Road Heston Middlesex
Samuel Sambrook 65 Head Married Provision Dealer Worthen Salop
Sophia Sambrook 53 Wife Married Collingbourne Wiltshire
Samuel Sambrook 12 Son Yearsley Hillingdon Middlesex
Emma Sambrook 8 Daughter Yearsley Hillingdon Middlesex

1851 census HO107 1697 folio 57
Hillingdon Middlesex
James Sambrook 52 Head Married Grocer Worthern Salop
Sophia Sambrook 41 Wife Married Cottleton Wilts
Harrett Sambrook 18 Daughter Hounslow Middlesex
Samuel Sambrook 2 Son Hounslow Middlesex


Baptism Collingbourne Kingston Wiltshire 24th July 1808
Sophia Romans parents William and Betty


Regards

Valda

[maureeno138]

Apologies Ray for the Middlesex and Wiltshire County confusion. Unfortunately this appears to be part of my researching problems as this detail is what was provided by the family for the purpose of the Death Cert thus creating some of my dilemma. Being an Auzzie i did not identify the geographical error until you noted it.... =)

Valda, Any assistance in tracing this family is very much appreciated, so if relocation to the Wiltshire board would assist, then I am grateful if you could do that for me.

Sharon,  I can confirm that I too have Emma Fisher (Wife of George) born in 1831 and her mother as Jemima Fisher as per her Australian Death certificate and her father listed as William Smith I believe this to be George’s Wife.

Re-capping -
Georges Mother looks to be Sophia with a possible error for the Australia Issued Death Certificate.

1851 Census look up - family name 'Mathews" fits as the witnesses to George's marriage to Emma Fisher were Charles Mathews and Henrietta Mathews. So this could make William who is noted as the father in law, possible George’s Grandfather I think.

Illegitimate father – Is there still an ability to confirm or get closer to knowing if his father was called John Neate Romans.

Sophia Sambrook nee ROMANS – I am guessing this is a possible an Aunty for George?  With his Grandparents being William and Betty potentially.

I can extend Georges full name to George Richard Romans as his son William who died in 1937 in Australia has this noted as his fathers name and again his mother is noted as Emma SMITH, not FISHER. Suspect family error Smith and Fisher get used intermittently. 
Can we locate any siblings for George and look further past his Grandparents William and Betty?

I love your work, love this site such a big fan.

[Valda]

Hi

As his mother's maiden name was Romans it is unlikely that George's father's surname was Romans. It is more likely it was Neate.
George's mother Sophia would appear to have married in 1857 Samuel Sambrook. The two children listed on the census (Harriett was probably Samuel's daughter by a first marriage, so a step-sister) would be George's half-siblings - Samuel Sambrook and Emma Sambrook.

George's baptism

Baptism Collinbourne Kingston
23rd October 1832
George Romans - mother Sophia Romans

George's mother's baptism

Baptism Collingbourne Kingston Wiltshire 24th July 1808
Sophia Romans parents William and Betty

The baptism of Sophia fits the age and place of birth of Sophia Sambourne nee Romans. Her marriage certificate (1857) would confirm her father's name.


George's grandfather and aunt Ann Matthews nee Romans and George himself recorded in the surname Neate on the 1851 census with his cousin George Matthews

1851 census HO107 1844 folio 385
Aughton Collingbourne Kingston Wiltshire
Ann Mathews 43 Head Married Malters wife Collingbourne Kingston Wiltshire
George Mathews 20 Son Malter Collingbourne Kingston Wiltshire
George Neate 18 Nephew Ploughman Collingbourne Kingston Wiltshire
William Romans 80 father-in-law Widower Pauper formerly ag lab Chilsdon Wiltshire

Ann Matthews gave her age as 35 on the 1841 census (adult ages, those over 15, usually rounded down to the nearest 5 so for Ann anywhere between 35-39). She gave her age on the 1861 census as 51, so she didn't quite age at the same rate as the passing years. Her husband Thomas Matthews is with her on the 1861 census.


Ann Roman
Christening:  26 JAN 1800   Collingbourne Kingston, Wiltshire
Father:  William Roman   

ANN ROMAINES
THOMAS MATHEWS 
Marriage:  20 OCT 1823   Saint Peter And Saint Paul, Marlborough, Wiltshire
 

 Another sibling taken from Family Search Index (free to search)

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true


Maria Roman
Christening:  12 SEP 1802   Collingbourne Kingston, Wiltshire
Father:  William Roman 
Mother:  Betty   

MARIA ROMANS
THOMAS MARCHMENT 
Marriage:  28 SEP 1822   Collingbourne Kingston, Wiltshire


possible (might be a mistake in the parish register or index re the mother's name)

Charles Romans   
Christening:  11 AUG 1805   Collingbourne Kingston, Wiltshire
Father:  William Romans   
Mother:  Mary 

(looks to be married to an Ann and living in Gloucestershire on the 1851 census)


This marriage could be of another sibling

MARY ROMANS
LEVI MARCHMENT 
Marriage:  15 SEP 1817   Collingbourne Kingston, Wiltshire


The baptisms of George and Emma's children in Collingbourne Kingston are indexed on Family Search
Jemima 1863
William 1865
Matha Jane 1867
George Richard 1873
Ann Maria 1874

On each of these baptisms George is recorded only as George not as George Richard. There doesn't seem any record in England - baptism, census, marriage, children's baptisms, which records him as George Richard. Perhaps the confusion on his son William's death certificate with his father's name was because his brother was so named, with the thinking that he was perhaps named after his father (which was the case with his first name but not the second).

 

1841 census HO107 1180/8 folio 9
Collingbourne Kingston Wiltshire
Wm Romans 65 Ag lab born in county
Elizabeth Romans 65 born in county
next door to Hannah, Charles, Robert and George Marchment aged 15, two 12s and a 7.

There is a possibility that the George aged 7 could instead be George Romans wrongly enumerated, as though Robert and Charles Marchment show on the 1851 census (born Collingbourne) there is no George Marchment.


Deaths Jun 1841 
Romans  Elizabeth    Pewsey  8 281   

Deaths Jun 1857   
Romans  William    Pewsey  5a 107



I'll move your topic to the Wiltshire board as you have requested.



Regards

Valda