Wrong baptism all along.

[coombs]

I am still in the mind that 1786 burial is Francis's wife. It seems their children who died were buried at Bethnal Green but perhaps Elizabeth wanted to be buried at Christ Church. And La Patente was on Browns Lane near Corbett's Court.

A Pierre Fradin was baptised in 1716 at La Patente son of Jacques Fradin and Jeanne.

[richarde1979]

I think Christchurch Spitalfields was seen as a better place to be buried, at that time, because the parish was certainly richer at that time than Bethnal Green. Alot of the bigger Silk Weaving Manufacturers had family tombs there. My ancestor specified in her will that she would like to be buried in the family vault at Christchurch 'if possible', but sadly it can't have been, as when she died in 1877 she was laid to rest instead at St Barnabas Homerton. She had no links to that parish, though her husband had been buried not too far away at St John of Jerusalem Hackney. I think there was by that time so little space in the east End graveyards you were lucky to get a burial plot anywhere in the churches.

[coombs]

My ancestor was buried at St John of Jerusalem Hackney. She died 1st January 1858 and was buried on the 11th.

[coombs]

I think once Francis was admitted to the French Hospital in 1801 he stayed there until his death in 1803. That is why they list his death date as he must have died in the hospital. 15th June 1803, buried 19th June 1803 at St Matthew, Bethnal Green.

[richarde1979]

Hi Ben

Yes that would be right. The Hospital was not a hospital in the regular sense, it was more like a modern care home for the elderly (as indeed it is now). They often waited many years for a place to come free, so would not vacate it lightly. Occasionally in the earlier years they did admit younger patients, I have seen a blind girl admitted there as her parents couldn't care for her, plus several 'alienated in spirit', i.e depressed/mentally ill. But the majority of the patients were there because they were elderly and unable to earn a living, in a time before welfare state could care for them.

[coombs]

Hi Richard

It seems that Francis had to wait 2 years from his application to his admittance. So I can imagine the demand for a bed far outweighed supply. I would like to know if he had a room himself or if he slept in a ward?

Ben

[richarde1979]

I'm not too sure about that Ben. I do know the overall conditions were pretty good in comparison with what was available to the general poor elsewhere, as I have read a report of a local visitor complaining that it was far too luxurious for the likes of the Bethnal Green paupers, quite an ungenerous way of thinking, but I imagine not an uncommon one either for the time. The 18th century building in St Lukes housed 234 inmates, the newer building in Victoria Park from the 1860's onwards housed much less around 60. The current incarnation, old peoples flats in Rochestor has less still just under 40 places.

[coombs]

I would think Francis lived in Spitalfields when he asked for admission in October 1799 and getting admission in September 1801. Although he was buried in Bethnal Green. Yet when he lived in Spitalfields it does look like they chose Bethnal Green as a place of burial for children that died in infancy.

I do think the Elizabeth Fraden buried in 1782 at Bethnal was the daughter born 1775 in Spitalfields.

I take it you have not found out any more on the Aubers/Obey's Richard?

[richarde1979]

I don't think any of mine were buried at Spitalfields in the 19th century, it may be that it was already getting full? There is an excellent book 'Life and Death in Spitalfields', about the graveyard there as the graves were all excavated about a decade back with great care by an archealogical team as part of the renovation process. Christchurch Spitalfields was at one point listed to be demolished, in the late 60's early 70's, but the local commmunity succesfully campaigned to save it, and a 30 year renovation process, costing 10 million pounds in all, was started to restore it to it's original state, which was finally completed last week, and it has now at last fully opened again for use.

Also re the French Hospital and the wait for a place, if they were in urgent need, ie every ill, no family etc they were placed on catogary A, priority, and some very lucky ones were admitted very quickly. There would also be an element of luck, if you could call it that, in as much as a place could become free with death of an existing patient. However most went onto catogary B, and could wait up to 7 to 8 years, so 2 years is not that bad. Quite a few died on the list before a place became free. Two things would have aided Francis, being born in France, he was unlikely to have had parish settlement in Bethnal Green or Spitalfields, and to be eligable for  the local parochial relief system, and secondly he was a 'confessor' having spent 3 years in prison for the faith in France. They would be very unlikely to turn someone like that away.