Ryan shot by IRA in Hyne's/Shanahan's pub

[corisande]

As with many of these incidents I'm amazed at the sequence of events - they all either show evidence of great intelligence work or lack of personal security by the undercover men... or a combination of both. For Ryan to have lived so close to Shanahan's a known haunt of Collins etc, and near to the other agents he informed on seems to be very lax

Shane as I understand it he was deliberately put there. They all had complete lack of personal security - virtually all of them had been through the war, and were, I believe, impervious to fear. Though having said that 5 of them are said to have committed suicide during this time (though again I have only found one)

What  have to try to do now is to see if Ryan was John Ryan, or if he was, like Bryan Fergus Molly, somebody else. Trouble is "John Ryan " is much more ubiquitous than "Bryan Fergus Molloy"

I also need to establish whether Shanahans was a known haunt of Collins, though given the owner it is likely. And take a  look at Hyne as well.

What is interesting to me is that he chose to have his wife there at Railway St (again assuming that the lady was his wife and not another agent).

[schneider]

Following passage from My Fight for Irish Freedom- Dan Breen, re Peader Clancy & Dick Mc Kee.Both had been observed by a military police sergeant named James Ryan as they entered Fitzpatrick's house off Gloucester Street in the early hours of Bloody Sunday. Ryan who lodged off Gloucester Street and who had been in intelligence work for some time,telephoned the information to Dublin Castle and Mc Kee and Clancy were captured in the raid which followed about 2am.
The informer James Ryan, did not long survive them.Known as Shankers Ryan he was a brother of Becky Cooper, a brothel keeper.His brother in law was with him in Hynes 'Pub in old Gloucester Place about 10am on Saturday 5th Feburary 1921,when he was executed for his treachery.For some time prior to Bloody Sunday we had suspected him of spying, but our request for permission to shoot him was turned down.There was not sufficient evidence against him we were told.
Hope there might be something there for you.

[corisande]

Thanks schneider,

That is very useful

There are some nice extra bits there, so I know know who was with him, and have an extra pair of names - sister and her husband

One interesting effect of "cut and paste" on the web is that someone wrote that he was the "sister of a madam" , rather than the "brother" and there are a dozen web sites carrying the error

[corisande]

I have seen the nickname given to John Ryan of "Shankers" in a number of places

Perhaps I will regret asking the question, but why would a man be nicknamed "Shankers?"

[shanew147]

I have seen the nickname given to John Ryan of "Shankers" in a number of places

Perhaps I will regret asking the question, but why would a man be nicknamed "Shankers?"

all I can think of is something possibly derived from 'Shank's mare'' - as in "he has no bicycle so he had to take the Shank's mare"



Shane

[shanew147]

question for you about these undercover men... do you know roughly how many there in total where and how many were not discovered ?

Most of the stories seem to be about the discovery of them... usually followed by a shooting. Going by the intelligence files in the Castle and the various raids and arrests by RIC/DMP etc there was some success on that side..


Shane

[corisande]

how many there in total where and how many were not discovered ?

Short answer is that nobody knows (or that nobody has researched them). Even the bodies have not been properly researched, to ascertain if they were undercover or not.

The 3 main sources of Intelligence men were

1. DMP, but as time went on they really did not enter the equation

2. Military Intelligence. Until Jan 1921 under control of Gen Boyd, after that moved to Police Control under Gen Tudor

3. Deep undercover men run by Basil Thomson - in effect MI6 in London

The Military Intelligence numbers of undercover men is estimated at from 100 to 200

Basil Thomson's men are particularly difficult to pinpoint as virtually nothing appears in the records (or has been deliberately removed). Molloy, Ryan, Fovargue, Digby Hardy (Gooding), Bell are examples of Thomson men

Effectively the IRA through the Castle moles, knew virtually all the names and addresses of the Military Intelligence men. And same for DMP obviously

Thomson ran his lot out of London to avoid Irish leaks, and to that extent was more successful in disguising the size of his operation

[shanew147]

thanks


Shane

[corisande]

His sister Becky Cooper, seems to be a colourful character. But I cannot find who her brother was, who was stranding in the bar with Ryan when he was shot.

Becky Cooper was apparently the model for :-

A Samuel Becket novel, Mercier and Camier, is known to refer to her. In the novel frequent visits are paid to "Helen's Place", a bawdy house modeled on that of legendary Dublin madam Becky Cooper (much like Becky Cooper, Helen has a talking parrot).

Beckett's Sanies II though apparently set in the American Bar in Paris, it was in fact inspired by a visit to Becky Cooper’s Dublin brothel.

And Kitty Ricketts is a character in Ulysses that Joyce based on the real life brothel madam Becky Cooper. Becky Cooper lived in Railway Street (former Tyrone St) until the late fifties.

Terry Fagan's Monto -- Madams, Murder and Black Coddle, says that famous madam Becky Cooper (she puts in a scary appearance in the poem Sanies II) owned a talking parrot.

She also appears in the Dublin street ballad Dicey Reilly :-
Long years ago when men were men and fancied May Oblong
Or lovely Becky Cooper or Maggie’s Mary Wong
One woman put them all to shame, just one was worthy of the name,
And the name of that dame was Dicey Reilly.

She does not appear in the 1911 census - maybe they did not record the brothels in Montgo. Nor does Ryan appear in Tyrone St in the census