Catherine Morris - Sedgeley Staffs

[plonker]

Help please
I am trying to find out who she married. If indeed she married at all.
Catherine Morris b 9/10/1850. 35 Darkhouse lane Coseley Sedgeley.
children William. Thomas. Mary. John. and Paul. All with the surname Townsend.Its believed her husband was Paul Townsend but i cant find a marriage.The first son William was born in Sedgeley so i can only presume thats where she married. Can anyone point me in the right direction.
Parents were Robert Morris b 1825 and Ann Millington b 1821.
Also does Darkhouse Lane still exist ?

[linell]

http://www.sedgleymanor.com/churches/baptist/darkhouse_baptist.html

HTH from Linell.

[AMBLY]

Hi Plonker

What did the 1870 birth certificate of Catherine's son William say about his  father?
Do you have any documentation ever describing her as : Catherine TOWNSEND nee MORRIS?

I've been having a read of the other 2 topics on this family, and unless I missed it, the only reference I can find to the Paul TOWNSEND you seek, is that this is the name her son William gave as his father on his Marriage to Ellen Ann ROSE in 1895?

jan 2010
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,430774.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,431080.0.html

Since Catherine TOWNSEND was stated as unmarried in 1871 with her infant son William and since it seems? her mother Ann MILLINGTON was first married to a William TOWNSEND in 1838 and may never have married Robert MORRIS, who is Catherine's father and the man Ann was 'wife' of from at least 1847 to 1861- is it not possible that Catherine reverted  to using TOWNSEND (perhaps because her mother did and thereby her children did too)?

Or pehaps  you've progressed in the the search since January.

Could it be a possibility there is no Paul TOWNSEND as such,  and that this name is a cobbling of 2 names  by William to avoid being identified on his marriage as 'illigitimate'.

Also you mentioned, Catherine had a daughter named Mary? Does Mary appear in any Census with Catherine? Have you found any birth registrations for Catherine's other TOWNSEND children?

Cheers
AMBLY

[plonker]

hi folks
first of all thank you to Linell for the link. very kind.
hello Ambly.
so many questions , so confusing.
sorry don't have Williams birth cert, so cant comment.

i have son Thomas marriage cert which lists father as Paul Townsend.

i have looked at the other posts and am still confused as to who he was and where he came from.

with regards to cobbling the name together its quite possible.

i also found the link between mother marrying a Townsend.

Couldn't find any info on Mary , i presumed she may have died very young as she doesn't turn up anywhere later on.

Only William was born in Sedgeley all the others were born in Clifton/Irlam Manchester.

The family moved to Lancashire for work as so many did back then. deep mining was opening up and jobs were plentiful. There were so many mining disasters back then particularly in the Clifton area which made lots of people move to Yorkshire. Deep mining again opening up in the Castleford area and a better safety record. (Candles were banned) .. But i digress i am still looking for proof that  Paul Townsend ever existed.

I have found a marriage for a Catharine Morris 3rd qtr 1869 but it does not list a husbands name.?
I have also found a Paul Townsend b 1849 in Mixbury Oxfordshire + all his family names match with the children of Catherine but can find no other link.

With regard to a death record for a Paul Townsend- nothing .?? except a death in Greenwich London in 1885.. The date would fit as she remarried in 1888 to William Churm. Though goodness knows what he was doing in London . Am i clutching at straws???

A very BIG  thanx to all for input.

[AMBLY]

Hi Plonker

sorry don't have Williams birth cert, so cant comment.

Although perhaps not your direct line - this birth cert may be important to sorting out Catherine and why she is using the name TOWNSEND, also to see if son William was registered illigitimate or as the son of Paul TOWNSEND.  May be proved wrong - but I'm picking there'll be no father on the cert and that the address of William's birth may be that of his grandparents MILLINGTON.

i have son Thomas marriage cert which lists father as Paul Townsend.

Catherine's sons' Marriages:
1895: MARRIAGE William TOWNSEND,  married Ellan Ann ROSE, Pontefract -  and on the certificate stated his father to be "Paul TOWNSEND" (other topic)
18??: MARRIAGE: Thomas TOWNSEND and ??. Marriage cert states father is Paul TOWNSEND (cert)
1897: MARRIAGE: John TOWNSEND age 21 (b abt 1876) , son of Paul TOWNSEND  married Sarah Ellen BAKER 19, dau of Robert BAKER at Feathertone, Yorkshire (searchlabs)
1899: MARRIAGE: Paul TOWNSEND and Emma Elizabeth WALL, Pontefract (freebmd). They are on the Census in Castlefod 1901 - where he says pob Pendlebury Lancs.

http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#start

So that's 3 out of 4 of them at least, who gave their father as "Paul TOWNSEND" - which  indicates there was a real-life man they knew to be their father, named "Paul", if not with the surname "TOWNSEND" (see next).

i have looked at the other posts and am still confused as to who he was and where he came from.

I am still looking for proof that  Paul Townsend ever existed.

I think there is compelling evidence that his  surname was STANLEY, which  won't be too hard to prove:
I also found this topic by another chatter, same family:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,311231.msg1925888.html#msg1925888

Reading that topic, together with the other two, and searching through census, BMD, and Search labs - I can't see anyone else more likely to be  "Paul TOWNSEND"  than Paul STANLEY, born in Bilston Staffs to Thomas and Fanny STANLEY  :

1881:70 Grosvenor St - Village of Newtown, Worsley,  Barton on Irwell, Lancashire
RG11 /  Piece: 3878 /  Folio: 83 /  Page: 36
Head: Paul STANLEY 38, Coal Miner, b Bilston Staffs
Wife: Emma STANLEY 32, b Bilston Staffs
Step-Son: William TOWNSEND 11, Scholar, b High Fields Staffs
Son: Thomas STANLEY 8, b St Helens Lancashire
Son: John STANLEY 5, b Clifton Lancashire
Son: Paul STANLEY 2, b Worsley Lancashire
Dau: Alice Ann STANLEY 9 weeks, b Worsley, Lancashire
Mother: Fanny STANLEY 78, widow, b Weyebury, Staffordshire (Wednesbury?)
Boarder: James J? STANLEY 27, unm, Coal Miner, b Dudley Worcestershire
Boarder: Matthew COULEY 40, unm, Coal Miner, b Ireland

1888: MARRIAGE - Catharine TOWNSEND and William CHURN,  reg in Pontefract Yks  - both on same page.

1891: CENSUS Whitwood, Castleford, Yks
RG12 /  Piece: 3762 / Folio 73 / Page 27
Head: William CHURM 41, Coal Miner, b Bilston Staffs
Wife: Catherine CHURM 41, b Sedgeley Staffs
Son: David CHURM 18, b Pendleton Lancs
Son: William  CHURM 12, Pendleton Lancs
Son: Samuel CHURM 11, b Pendleton Lancs
Dau: Florence CHURM 3, b Whitwood
Step-Son:  William TOWNSEND  20 , b Sedgeley Staffs
Step-son: Thomas TOWNSEND 18, b Clifton Lancs
Step-Son: John TOWNSEND 15, b Clifton Lancs
Step-Son: Paul TOWNSEND 12, b Clifton Lancs

Highfields, in the village of Ettingshall, Sedgley - is where Catherine's mother Ann was with her own parents in 1841.

Is Emma STANLEY in 1881 above, really Catharine ?
One way to try prove or disprove - is the birth cert of the new-born daughter, enumerated as "Alice Ann".
There is no registration for an "Alice Ann" in Barton-upon-Irwell (the district covering Worsley)  - but there is this one:

BIRTH: Philis Ann STANDLEY 1881; and she later died 1883 age 2 (registered as STANLEY)

Catherine had an older sister  named Philis  in the 1861 Census (and who may have died in Dec Qtr 1861). If Philis Ann STANDLEY's 1881 birth cert shows her mother as Catharine, then the 1881 Census is either a mistake in naming her "Emma" or they were deliberately hiding her identity?

There is also this - which I'm betting  is  Catherine's son Paul "TOWNSEND".
BIRTH: Paul STANDLEY - Sep Qtr 1878, Barton (upon Irwell) Lancs

Cheers
AMBLY

[AMBLY]

This is Paul STANLEY pre 1881 - it puts him right in the same place Catherine was living in 1871:

1851: Broad Lane, Village of Ettingshall, (Coseley) Sedgley, Staffordshire
HO107 / Piece: 2031 / Folio: 528 / Page: 18
Head: Thomas STANLEY 49, Coal Miner, b Wednesburym Staffs
Wife: Fanny 47, b Sedgley
Son: Thomas 16, b Bilston
Son: William 13, Miner, b Bilston
Son: Paul 9, b Bilston

1861: 90 Broad Lane, Village of Ettingshall, (Coseley) Sedgley, Staffordshire
RG9 / Piece: 2053 / Folio: 125 / Page: 17
Head: Thomas STANLEY 60, Miner, b Bilston, Staffs
Wife: Fanny 58, b Wednesbury
Son: Thomas 27, unm,  b Bilston
Son: Paul 19, unm, Miner, b Bilston, Staffs

1871: 64 Broad Lane, Village of Ettingshall, (Coseley) Sedgley, Staffordshire
RG10 / Piece: 3008 / Folio: 120 / Page: 18
Head: William STANDLEY 32, Miner, b Bilston Staffs
Wife: Martha STANDLEY 32, b Codsgill, Salop
Mother: Fanny STANDLEY 68, wid, b Westomarch?, Staffs
Brother: Paul STANDLEY 29, marr, Miner, b Bilston Staffs
Servant: Sarah Ann TURNER 17, unm, Domestic Servant, b Sedgley Staffs
Dau: Mary STANDLEY 9, b Woolby? Staffs
Son: William STANDLEY 4, b Woolby? Staffs
Dau: Jane STANDLEY 2 mths, b Sedgley Staffs

Paul is enumerated as married in 1871. Is this his marriage, maybe:

MARRIAGE: Jun Qtr 1865, Dudley Staffs, Vol 6c, page 6
Paul STANLEY married Ellen COSSLEY 14 May 1865 at Coseley, Litchfield, Stafford (Search Labs)

If so, is  Paul still married to  Ellen COSSLEY in 1871? If not what happened to her? Is she still living ? Did they have any children?

Because in 1881 Paul STANLEY is said to be the step-father of William TOWNSEND, not the father - it might it indicate Paul was in 1871 still married to Ellen and had not yet 'taken up' with Catherine? Or he HAD taken up with Catherine by mid 1871, but was not the father of William.

This looks like Paul in 1901:
10 Alice St, Pendlebury, Lancashire
Head: Paul STANLEY 50, Coal Miner, b Staffordshire
Wife: Ann STANLEY 50, b Staffordshire
Dau: Sarah NICHOLLS 23, unm, b Pendlebury
Dau: Martha NICHOLLS 13. b Pendlebury
Dau: Hannah NICHOLLS 12, b Pendlebury

MARRIAGE: 1886 Salford:
Paul STANLEY & Ann NICHOLLS on same page.

Because it looks  like both Catherine & Paul married other people after 1881 (CHURM & NICHOLLS,respectively), because divorce is extremely unlikley and both seem to be alive & appear in 1901 - it might be Paul & Catherine were never married. And perhaps a reason was that one or the other of them (Paul?) was not free to do so.

Cheers
AMBLY

[plonker]

Thank you AMBLY for your help

so much info to take in, dont know where to start?

Could you sum up which certs i should apply for first?

I have already been in touch with Tweezer and RWMarsh to see which certs they have. Hopefully getting all the info together as a joint venture we may be able to crack this mystery.

THANK YOU SOOOOO MUCH

[plonker]

Ambly you were right williams birth cert has no father.!!!!!!