Author Topic: William Wainright Lynar and Isabella Semple  (Read 12892 times)

Offline aghadowey

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Re: William Wainright Lynar and Isabella Semple
« Reply #27 on: Wednesday 30 July 25 22:26 BST (UK) »
Going back to basics, and remembering that it was customary for marriages to take place in the bride's church ...
Oliver [Olivia] Jane Lynar married 1899 in Mount Pottinger Methodist Church-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1899/10395/5785107.pdf
Father listed as William Lynar, Rector BUT a rector would be Church of Ireland [it would be Minister if Methodist].

In 1901 Olivia and her mother Elizabeth are both Methodists as is Olivia's husband.

In theory we should expect to find an Olivia Jane/Olivia born Co.Antrim with mother called Elizabeth.
I found an Olivia born in Belfast with mother Elizabeth but father Thomas Henry is a printer-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1867/03477/2277747.pdf
I found an Olivia Jane born Larne district but parents don't match up either-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1865/03565/2313349.pdf
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Offline aghadowey

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Re: William Wainright Lynar and Isabella Semple
« Reply #28 on: Wednesday 30 July 25 22:46 BST (UK) »
Elizabeth Lyner (Olivia's mother) died 1903 and is listed as widow of William Lyner, Episcopalian Rector (which agrees' with details on Olivia's marriage a few years earlier)-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05673/4598307.pdf

I checked Olivia's residence in 1899 but in the Valuation Book  for 1897-1905 the property is listed as vacant.
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Offline gaffy

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Re: William Wainright Lynar and Isabella Semple
« Reply #29 on: Thursday 31 July 25 09:42 BST (UK) »

... I haven't found Alfred's first marriage yet.


This has to be it, a marriage to Jane Surgenor at St. Anne's Belfast in August 1878, as you can see, the civil record is a mess:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1878/11106/8065166.pdf

I say "This has to be it", for this couple went on to have a son Edward in December 1878 ...
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1879/02934/2075187.pdf

... who in turn married Hannah Taylor at Knock Methodist Church in 1901, the civil record shows his father's name as Alfred and an address in Flora Street which is an exact match for the 1901/1911 census returns:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1909/10023/5645832.pdf

I can't yet find a death for Jane (Surgenor) Lynar, but going back to that 1878 Lynar-Surgenor marriage, the headline is that Alfred gave a different father to that in his 1887 record of marriage to Martha Jemphrey, for he named him as Alfred instead of William. So either Alfred didn't know who his father was or there was some "creative" stuff going on.


Offline gaffy

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Re: William Wainright Lynar and Isabella Semple
« Reply #30 on: Thursday 31 July 25 10:36 BST (UK) »
I think it's worth adding an overall perspective on how rare the surname Lynar/Lyner was in the north of Ireland (when it wasn't being written as Lynas), a quick search in the 1901/1911 Ireland censuses demonstrates that the only such "local" occurrences were Elizabeth (with daughter Olivia Jane Costley), Alfred (with Martha and children) and his son Edward (with Hannah and child).  There's also a William who I think is more properly Lynas / Lynes.  But that's largely it. 

The name was likewise rare in the street directories on the PRONI and Lennon Wylie websites, where a summary of occurrences is:

- a few mentions of the Reverend himself in the directory period 1858-1870 at Islandmagee BUT... listed at High Street in Carrickfergus in 1852;
- a mention of Elizabeth Lyner at Jonesborough Street in 1899;
- a few mentions of an A. Lyner in the 1890s at Beersbridge Road (same road where Oliva lived at the time of her marriage in 1899), I know this is Alfred because there is a match on this address to the birth registrations for several of his children.

And again, that's it. On top of the rarity of the surname, when you factor in the occupation of "Rector" (much less common than the likes of farmer, weaver, or labourer), then you have something quite specific indeed. Olivia Jane Lynar's 1899 marriage record and her mother Elizabeth's 1903 death record are unequivocal in pointing at Rev. William Lynar.  However, the Reverend's death record, his will and the absence of any civil or online church record indicate strongly that the Reverend never married.

When you add in the illegitimate birth of Jonathon Joseph Lynar to Elizabeth "King" Glover and the baptism of an Alfred "Leior" for parents William Leior and Eliza Glover, one starts to wonder if a relationship out of wedlock is possible. It's certainly not impossible, and as Arthur Conan Doyle said through his most famous character, when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth - until someone finds something new to otherwise explain all of this, we are getting closer and closer to that point of conclusion.



Offline aghadowey

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Re: William Wainright Lynar and Isabella Semple
« Reply #31 on: Thursday 31 July 25 12:49 BST (UK) »
I was thinking along the same lines as gaffy. Found lots more information which proves some of my theory and have some ideas ...

Starting with Elizabeth Glover. I think she was in a long-term relationship with Rev. William King Lynar and they had at least 3 children together-
1. Alfred (bapt. 1860 Belfast)- he was certainly son of Elizabeth (more on this later)
2. Olivia (possibly born before 1864, unregistered or we just haven't found her birth record)
3. Jonathan Joseph (1868-1870). Note that he died 1 week after Rev. Lynar.

William's death lists him as bachelor and Will only mentions his mother with a provision for next of kin according to law if she died first (which she did). It's possible he had previously, and privately, made a provision for Elizabeth and their children. As a Church of Ireland Rector he would not have been able to marry someone of what seems to be a much lower class- family and church would both have objected.
The baptism for Alfred in Belfast shows that he and Elizabeth were in a relationship. It would be interesting to know if he was present or if Elizabeth was the one who had him baptised on her own (more likely perhaps given the strange spelling of his surname- she signed by her mark in 1893).
In 1868 Elizabeth is using the middle name King (William's middle name) but her own surname (Glover). Two years later she is using the surname Lynar when that child dies.
At some point after it looks like Elizabeth Glover moves to Belfast and starts calling herself Lynar. Children Alfred & Olivia also use this surname. Olivia's marriage and Elizabeth's death both reference Rev. William Lynas a Rector (thus Church of Ireland).

Olivia's connection with Elizabeth is pretty clear and I discovered that when Alfred's son David was born in 1893 "grandmother Lizzie Lynar" was the informant-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1893/02318/1868625.pdf
A few years later (1899) Olivia's residence was Beersbridge Road.

Have lots more but will wait until axlehurn reads through all these posts and responds.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline axlehurn

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Re: William Wainright Lynar and Isabella Semple
« Reply #32 on: Thursday 31 July 25 14:31 BST (UK) »
Without a great deal of information I have always wondered if Elizabeth was a housekeeper for The rector, given that he was living with his mother who was some 20 years older than him.  I did try to get the financial records for the period to see if there was payment made to a housekeeper but unfortunately the local records were lost in a fire in the church and C of I in Dublin couldn't help either as their records went up in flames in 1922 of thereabouts. Thanks the great work by both Aghadowey and Gaffy I think we can safely say that the rector was Olivia's father.  There is only one problem that I see.  Olivia died in RVH 13/07/1928 and is recorded as being 55 which would make her birth in 1873.
Personally I'm not to worried about this, as declared ages can change dependant on circumstances and the general lack of records.
I suppose there might be a way to "prove" the relationship if someone in the Dublin Lyner's were to take a DNA test along with myself (I'm the only one left and none to follow on)

Offline gaffy

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Re: William Wainright Lynar and Isabella Semple
« Reply #33 on: Thursday 31 July 25 19:48 BST (UK) »
The Larne Reporter & Northern Counties Advertiser of 2 May 1868 carried a report of the routine weekly meeting of the Larne Board of Guardians about the operation of the workhouse.  Among the various items discussed was a letter to the Commissioners from an inmate named "Eliza Kane Glover", corroborating a complaint made by the matron against the master and schoolmistress about a child badly treated by the other children.  Eliza Kane Glover's letter, as published in full, set out an incident in which her 6 year old daughter had the collar of her slip pulled by an older girl.

Fast forward one week to 9 May 1868, when the same newspaper in the same type of routine weekly report had an item about the Board's discussion of the complaint, which included the following:

The Master - I would also suggest that Eliza Glover be removed from the other inmates, and placed in the separation ward.  She has given birth to another child a few days since, and refuses to give the name of its father.
Mr. Burke - That's the woman who wrote to the Commissioners.
Mr. Casement - I would say that she and all such characters should be put into that ward.
Dr. Knox - That is the use of the ward; and the usual practice, in most unions, is to separate from the other inmates all females who have had two or more illegitimate children.

A year and a bit later on 14 August 1869, the same newspaper in the same type of routine weekly report carried the following item:

A woman named Eliza Kane Glover appeared before the Board for the purpose of removing her three illegitimate children from the Workhouse.  She had been an inmate for a considerable period, and her children were in great measure reared in the house. She had recently obtained her discharge and that of her children, but had, it appeared, deserted them at Whitehead. They were taken in charge by Mr. Eslar, a Warden, who placed them under a woman named Sharp, who had them conveyed to the Workhouse.  The mother made a long rambling statement with reference to the reputed father of the children and his promises to contribute towards their support.

His Lordship suggested that the best thing under the circumstances that could be done was, to allow her to take out the children and instruct the Relieving Officer to look after them; and if it was found that she had again deserted them, to have her arrested and made amenable to the law.

The other members of the Board coincided in this arrangement, and the woman was allowed in the meantime to take out her children.

Presumably the 6 year old daughter mentioned in the newspaper item of 2 May 1868 was Olivia Jane, so that would place her birth c. 1862. The child mentioned as having been born a few days before in the newspaper item of 9 May 1868 must have been be Jonathon Joseph (born on 1 May in the Workhouse according to the birth registration). And presumably Alfred makes up the third of the three children mentioned in the newspaper item of 14 August 1869 (Jonathon Joseph only died the following year).

Interesting stuff. I can pm you copies if required.


Offline ion

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Re: William Wainright Lynar and Isabella Semple
« Reply #34 on: Friday 01 August 25 07:47 BST (UK) »
Thankyou gaffy and aghadowey for your research although I am a bit supprised to read that Revd Lynar may have had an affair or secret relationship from at least 1860 to 1870. I am also supprised to read in gaffa's last post, a newspaper extract dated 14 August 1869, stating that Eliza Glover had taken her 3 children to Whitehead and left them with Mr Eslar a Warden. Was he the C of I church warden? Axlehurn's suposition that Eliza was Revd Lynar's housekeeper seems plausible but is not proved. Nor is there any proof that Revd Lynar fathered one or all of the Glover children. It is clear that Eliza Glover had known Revd Lynar but when he prepared his will on 19 May 1869 he made no provision for Eliza Glover nor her children. In fact he left all his estate to his mother, and if she died before him, then to his next of kin. His next of kin would have been his wife and children if they could prove a marriage. As he never married his estate would have been passed on to his brothers Roland Alexander Fawcett Lynar and Edward Alexander Fawcett Lynar. Roland was a member of the Royal Irish Constabulary for a time then emigrated to USA and Edward joined the military in South Africa. I don't think Revd Lynar had a large estate as the Registry of Deeds Memorial Transcriptions appear to show that the rents and tithes from his parish were claimed by James Campbell solicitor in payment of a debt. See 1860.25.193 8/10/1860,1862.33.18 2/9/1862, 1863.22.64 22/6/1863, 1867.3.296 31/1/1867, 1868.8.93 1/3/1868. Will proved showing effects under 450 pounds. Was this before debtors claim? However his estate would have inherited his mothers estate.
It appears from the above memorial transcriptions that the Revd had no money to support a family and unfortunatly Eliza received no sympathy from the press. I am interested in reading the full newspaper articles and hearing further research. Life was difficult in those times.

Another character in my tree Lt. Col David Lynar Fawcett had a liasion with Elizabeth Neale and fathered a child out of wedlock. David later married Anne Frances Porter and had children. He made provision in his will for Elizabeth Neale's girl Clara Elizabeth Neale. He is known for being murdered in one of the last pistol duels in England in 1843.
 
Ion

Lynar: Dublin/Wicklow
Fawcett: Dublin
Mills, Mills King: Dublin
Semple: Dublin
Exshaw: Dublin
Duggan: Dublin
Heatley: Bray
Sparks: Greenwich London
Merrick : London

Offline gaffy

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Re: William Wainright Lynar and Isabella Semple
« Reply #35 on: Friday 01 August 25 08:47 BST (UK) »

... I am also supprised to read in gaffa's last post, a newspaper extract dated 14 August 1869, stating that Eliza Glover had taken her 3 children to Whitehead and left them with Mr Eslar a Warden. Was he the C of I church warden?


This may have been William or David Esler, two brothers who were prominent in the local (Whitehead) community, as they owned between them a farm of 90+ acres in the immediate vicinity. They would have been aged in their late 60s back then.  If not them, then possibly a son like Patrick Esler. 

In the context of the newspaper item and poor relief, this reference is more likely to mean that Esler was a warden for his dispensary district, meaning that he could issue tickets for relief (medical or other) within that district. So he would have been a local point of contact in the Whitehead area for accessing such assistance and all related matters.