Help with the Sewell family

[Socialite2018]

Yes. I have on order  birth cert for Frederick Clare, mother's maiden name Sewell. It should be ready 28 Sept so maybe I will have more info then but it may be another dead end!

[Lynne Murray]

fantastic,  I have thomas William Murray's Birth certificate and marriage certificate and Thomas and Annie's Marriage Certificate and yes Betty is right that they were both (Annie and THomas Senior) were stated as being 18 years old when married in 1897.

I cannot find when THomas Senior Died and Yes Annie was in Cane Hill Hospital when she died in 1943. I have the original  Death card and also sent one to Betty (as a nice gesture).

If anyone can find details of Thomas Seniors Death I am happy to order it to gather more information.

lynne.

[Socialite2018]

Ok ... this is cat among the pigeons stuff!  I now have the birth certificate of Frederick William Clare.  He was born 20 May 1909 at 8 Dundee Buildings, Clerkenwell, Holborn (There is an earlier post which mentions Dundall Buildings).  His father was Frederick Clare, Railway car-man and his mother Annie Clare, nee Sewell.  I rather suspect the two were not married.  It would appear from court records that Annie's husband, Thomas Murray, did time in HM Prisons.  Petty theft.  Records state he was aged 19 and a news vendor.  Year: 1898 Date: 19 Apr 1898 Court: Clerkenwell Place: London.

[Betty.W]

I really cannot see that Annie who was married to Thomas Murray would have been going back and forth between two men. (Frederick being born in 1909 and another son Thomas being born in 1912)  I think it is more likely that this Annie wasn't the mother of Frederick William Clare. William Sewell had three daughters named/or called Annie, the first was with his first wife along with another daughter named Alice. The second was Annie sometimes called Annette (she was the one married to Thomas Murray).Then the third was born on or about 1881, she is the one that I was looking for originally, I thought then that she was born in 1887 that was because on the 1901 census they had transposed Annie and Sarah's ages. This Annie could well have had another name and just have been known as Annie ( there are quite a lot of Mary-Ann's born about then). Maybe she was the mother of Frederick Clare.?? The last time that I spoke to my aunt before she died she assured me that there were two of my grandmothers sisters named Annie apart from the one from her fathers first marriage.  I wonder if we will ever find the true facts about the family.

[Socialite2018]

I have found Catherine Murray's baptism. This shows her mother as Hannah, another variant of Annie. Catherine went on to marry Albert Brichard, the two lived in Noel Road - a few doors away from John Royden Murray and Rose Murray. Catherine died in 1985 and her will is listed. This may give further information. She is also on the 1939 register with another entry at her abode unavailable for viewing so maybe a child. No sign of her husband.

I would think maybe Annie and Frederick Clare had a liaison and she then went back to Thomas Murray.  It would seem Frederick grew up in this household but family attest that there was a rift - possibly due to the paternity issue?  Conjecture on my part. I do know DNA tests show match with descendants of Francis and Caroline Clare so Frederick William and Grace Clare's daughter, another descendant with whom I am in contact and my friend.

[Betty.W]

Do you know were the parents of John Royden Murray and Rose Murray nee Thomas. I have a lot of Murrays in my tree, also my great x2 grandmother's maiden name was Thomas.

[Betty.W]

Hi Socialite I have just read your message and pleased to hear that you have found a marriage for Annie Sewell and Frederick Clare.I have never managed to find it. Would you please let me have the details of this marriage. (where,when ages parents etc.) Rather looks at the moment as if it could have been Annies sister Annie (confusing I know two sisters both called Annie). By the way I think that the Clares and the Murrays and Sewells were probably connected for many years I have a Lucy Ckare in my tree from way back in the 1700's. married to a Murray.

[Socialite2018]

So sorry my mistake.  I should have written birth and not marriage.  I have the birth certificate of Frederick Clare, 20th May 1909.  Parents:  Frederick and Annie Clare (formerly Sewell).  The subsequent evidence I have matches the dob of Frederick Clare Jnr but I have been unable to find a marriage.  I surmise that the two never wed as she was at the time married to Thomas Murray.  I have found a baptism for their daughter, Catherine so  b 19th Dec 1899, baptized 11 Jan 1900 at St Paul's Clerkenwell.  Parents Thomas and Hannah Murray (Hannah another version of Ann(e)). Thomas,  News Vendor.

[Betty.W]

I still can't believe that Annie Sewell was the same Annie Sewell who was married to Thomas Murray (as I said before the two Annies might well have been sisters). My aunt told me that there were two Annies (sisters of my grandmother) My aunt remembered visiting Annie in the mental home and remembered the other Annie as well. It just doesn't make any sense that Annie would have had an affair with Frederick Clare then been so devastated when her husband Thomas died that she "lost her mind" and was admitted to a mental hospital where she spent the rest of her life.My aunt passed away last year, so I can't ask her anymore.