Help with the Sewell family

[Betty.W]

Hi,further to my last post I have been doing a bit more digging and have at last found the family in St. Pancras. On the 1901 census they put their place of birth as St.Pancras when in fact they were born in the Clerkenwell/Holborn area. Anyway even though the ages don't all tally (my grandmothers birth date is right) it must be the same family. The fathers occupation is given as a bookseller, he must have changed for awhile then gone back to his previous occupation. So the marriage of Annie to Thomas Murray is correct. Funny, my grandmother married a Murray as well.
I have been unable to find Annie and Thomas on the 1901 census, although I did find one Thomas Murray who was in prison could this be him I wonder!!if so where was Annie.I have not been able to find any more children as yet though.

[Lynne Murray]

This is correct. I didn't know Katherine died but I knew she existed. The other son is Fred**** Murray. Changed his surname.  So three children. Don't forget Thomas served in the military I'm not sure when but was in royal artillery same as his son Thomas William.  Now Annie's mum Sarah Sewell was at the birth of Allan Murray .. Thomas and Elsie Murray's son.  So is great Grandmother to Allan Murray.  I have birth marriage and death cert  My grandfather kept them. Annie got sick probably after Kate's death.. again I have all documents of her death and burial and it was paid for by her son Fred! 

[Lynne Murray]

Betty sorry ... The Sarah with Tom and Elsie at Allan's birth was maternal ggmother Sarah. Apologies.  But Annie Sewell and Thomas William were 18 in 1897 on 13th June their wedding day so 1911 cencus would be correct at age 32

[Betty.W]

Hi Lynne,I am confused here, as I told you, Annie had three children BY 1911 one had died and the other two lived, Katherine was alive aged 11 in 1911. So one of the other two had died and there was no mention of the third. Any other children that she may have has must have been born AFTER 1911. What other children do you have?
Who is Elsie? who is Sarah?
Annie Sewell's mother was Annie Grainger and Annie Grainger's mother was Ann Thomas. It sounds as though you may have got the wrong Annie Sewell's family.
Who is Fred Murray? My grandmother (one of Annie's sisters) married Frederick Murray, BUT he wasn't related to Thomas Murray.

[Lynne Murray]

Hi Betty,

I am confused as well.  I was responding to your comments in the first few posts...

You were asking...
Annie Sewell b.1887 St.Bride. Sarah Sewell b.c1881 or later. St.Bride. William Sewell b.1881 Holborn. and Annette Sewell b.1879 Clerkenwell.
These are my grandmothers siblings. I have been trying for ages to find marriages, and possible children for them without success. I believe Annie lost her husband when the Titanic went down and ended up in a mental home in Surrey where I think she died.
Thanks in advance
Betty.W.

You further advised that "annie" was possibly th eyounger Annie and was in a mental hospital after her husband died.

I have an Annie Sewells marriage certificate (1897).  Her father was William Sewell. she was 18.
Annie sewell married Thomas Murray (b1912) .. I also have her death certificate. Signed by her son Fred, Thomas's brother of course.  Katherine was their sister and I have no info on her.

I also have funeral arrangement paper work and confirmation she was admitted to Cane Hill phych hospital.
Fred didnt die he was still alive in 1943.   I also have the announcement card of annies death as my grandfather (this Thomas & Annie Murrays son (Thomas William) kept them all.

Elsie is Thomas Junior (my Grandad's Wife) .. the sarah I mentioned I apologised for as this was Elsie's mum not Thomas' mum.

Very similiar but obviously not same family.  L.

[Betty.W]

I think that both Lynne and I need some help, -  Annie Sewell and Thomas Murray married in 1897.On the 1911 census Annie was at her mothers house,it states that she had tree children,(2.living and 1 died) However, I have found only one child (Katherine age 11) living with her father Thomas at his mothers house. so it is possible that two children died and only one lived. Annie and Thomas had another child in 1912 named Thomas William. Lynne believes that they another son named Frederick W.a few years after Thomas William, but I cannot find this birth. When Annie died in Cane Hill Mental hospital Coulsdon in 1943 the person who registered the death is named as F.W.Clare relationship - son !! This is the person that Lynne thinks must be Frederick W Murray and that he had changed his name. In 1943 F.W.Clare lived at 46 Noel Road/Street Islington.In 1935 - 1943 Thomas William also lived in Noel street or Road..We have also been unable to find a death for Thomas Senior. Hopefully someone can help us with this mystery - Thank-you

[dawnsh]

have you tried searching for pre-1911 births directly on the GRO site?

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp

Their birth index now includes the mother's maiden name in search results.

[avm228]

I think that both Lynne and I need some help, -  Annie Sewell and Thomas Murray married in 1897.On the 1911 census Annie was at her mothers house,it states that she had tree children,(2.living and 1 died) However, I have found only one child (Katherine age 11) living with her father Thomas at his mothers house. so it is possible that two children died and only one lived. Annie and Thomas had another child in 1912 named Thomas William. Lynne believes that they another son named Frederick W.a few years after Thomas William, but I cannot find this birth. When Annie died in Cane Hill Mental hospital Coulsdon in 1943 the person who registered the death is named as F.W.Clare relationship - son !! This is the person that Lynne thinks must be Frederick W Murray and that he had changed his name. In 1943 F.W.Clare lived at 46 Noel Road/Street Islington.In 1935 - 1943 Thomas William also lived in Noel street or Road..We have also been unable to find a death for Thomas Senior. Hopefully someone can help us with this mystery - Thank-you

The couple at 46 Noel Rd in the 1940s were Frederick W and his wife Grace Florence Clare.  At the same address a Rose Murray was listed (with Grace) in 1945.

Frederick W Clare married Grace F Swinchatt in Islington, Sep qtr 1934.

His likely death: Frederick William Clare (born 20 May 1909), death reg Apr 1998 Basingstoke.
Her likely death: Grace Florence Clare (born 26 Oct 1913), death reg Nov 1986 Basingstoke.

I can't see at the moment any obvious family relationship with the Murrays or Sewells.

[Lynne Murray]

Good Morning Betty and all that are helping here.  Thank you so very much.

I would like to confirm that Frederick W Murray did change his name officially from Murray to Clare.
My grandfather and father confirmed this over the years. 

May I ask with the Rose MURRAY at the same address as Fredrick may I ask if it says how old she is?
and relationship.

The Swinchat relationship I did pick up and had this as a possiblility so thank you there.  Very much worth trying to find out more.

Betty Im not sure of whether or not Thomas Jnr was older or younger than the others.  this was never spoken about Just the definate 'brother and sister' and their names.

Thanks everyone. 

I think the key to all this will be with the possible grandmother of Thomas W, Frederick W and Katherine.  The Death announcement card I have for her is Caroline Elizabeth Murray possibly known as Elizabeth Murray - Wife of James Murray.  The card says.... In affectionate remembrance of Caroline Elizabeth Murray   who passed away January 22nd 1936 aged 79 years. Layed to rest at Abney Park Cemetary In Grave No 50147.

1901 census has a james murray and elizabeth Murray with Sons Thomas (12) and David (3) at 10 Francis Court Clerkenwell.

could anyone extend on this for us Please.