Apprentice Boys?

[cassidys17]

Hi.
I was just wondering, does anyone know if the Apprentice Boys Museum in Derry has records of members between the years 1880-1920 and if so, what sort of information is contained within the records in regards to specific members? Has anyone any experience in trying to ascertain whether or not an ancestor may have been involved in the Apprentice Boys or loyal order institutions in Derry?
Thanks.

[rob elliott]

Cassidys17,

There is not one club as such, it is an association of clubs which have their own distinctive names.
Mitchelburne, Baker, Walker, Campsie, Murray, Browning [named after figures involved in the seige].
then there is the 'No surrender' and one actaully called 'The Apprentice Boys of Derry' club.
Each one has a parent club, based in the City of Londonderry and various branch clubs through-out the Uk, Ireland and small number across the world.

The record for each club would be the membership roll. Usually a large ledger, which would hold the name and address of the member and the record of having paid their yearly dues.
There would also be minutes of meeting books, recording the monthly meetings. These may or may not record members names subject to the detail the club secretary puts in. Usually a names present is taken.
But as far as any other details of the member would depend on whether they held any office within the club at anytime, in which case mention might be made in the minutes.
The older records would be held by the individual clubs [if kept]. So to have any chance you would need to know which Parent Club or Branch Club to start with.

Did the persons you are looking for leave any photos or regalia?

Were they from the City, as there may be other records of interest to you that i have.

Rob

[cassidys17]

Thank you very much Rob for all of the informaiton, it is very much appreciated!
I do not actually know for sure if my ancestors were members of the Apprentice Boys. The names of my ancestors were John (who was born in England) and Edward Sterling and James Allen (both of whom were born in the city) all of whom were Protestants and lived in the Fountain area of the City. I was told that they could possibly have been members of the Apprentice Boys and I was very curious to find out if they were, and particularly whether or not it would have been the culture, especially at that time for most Protestants living in the City to join the Apprentice Boys. All three, had they joined the Apprentice Boys would have done so between the period of 1860 to 1917.

[rob elliott]

No not every protestant in the City would have joined the Apprentice Boys.
It was mainly a working Class/Lower Middle class organisation.
A lot of younger Unionist boys would have joined one of the many flute or pipe bands in the City, which would give them an outlet away from work and allow them to participate in the parades of the various loyal orders.

There was one association most of the City protestants did subscribe to, the movement against home rule. In September 1912 there was a mass signing of the declaration known as the 'Ulster Covenant', which stated that the Loyal subjects would resist the imposition of Home Rule if forced upon them.

To support this in 1913 the Ulster Volunteer Force was formed. Within the City of Londonderry most Protestant men between the ages of 18 [as low as 14 in some cases] and 80 joined.

Based on your other posts-

I have found James Allen on the 1914 list for the 2nd Battalion 'Derry City UVF', number 1799, with an address as 10 Kennedy Street. Given age 42.

Edward Sterling joined the army in 1892, 5th Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers [Militia], giving an address of 35 Fountain Street, next of kin, sister Margaret Sterling.

He left the army after being time served and rejoined on the outbreak of war in 1914, although did not go overseas. He gave his sister Margaret, 18 Kennedy St as next of kin.

He was discharged from the army in 1916 and died on the 4/7/1917. When he died they had no address for him so did not issue a pension.

I think he may possibly be buried in Coleraine if not in the City. Where he died.

In 1922 his Silver War Badge, issued for being discharged honourably, was sent to his sister Margaret Allen at 10 Kennedy Street.

Rob

[cassidys17]

I cannot begin to thank you enough for all of this wonderful information; it is very much deeply appreciated! As I have very little concrete knowledge of the Apprentice Boys and the Orange Order here in the city, I am absolutely delighted that you have so generously given me so much information concerning the membership and structure of the organisation, thank you very much.

I was not aware that James Allen had been in the army and after I saw your post, I asked a friend if she could kindly search ancestry.com and she found several documents relating to James Allen’s First World War record and prior military service, which is just fantastic. Prior to the First World War James Allen was in the Rifle Brigade before transferring to the Inniskilling Fusiliers and the Labour Corps. He served 16 years in the army, and saw active service in Egypt, India and South Africa during the Boer War, being awarded the Queen’s South Africa medal with two clasps: Belfast and Laing’s Nek. Had you not informed me of James Allen’s involvement with the UVF then I would not have known to search for a military record, so I would very much like to thank you!

Could I possibly ask where you got the record for James Allen being in the UVF as I would be particularly interested in finding out more about James and what he would have been doing in the UVF and what sort of activities the UVF would have been involved in then? Also, as a former soldier, would James have helped train men in the UVF? It is quite ironic, but my great-grandfather on my mother’s side of the family tree, Frederick Lawrence, was a Private in the Inniskilling Fusiliers and before he died in 1915 (he has a military headstone in the City Cemetery) he actually helped train members of the Irish Volunteers whilst he was a ferry boat man on the Foyle, which is a curious fact now that James Allen was involved in the UVF. When you mentioned the Ulster Covenant I was extremely interested, and wondered whether James Allen had actually signed the document, so I decided to browse the PRONI website to see if the Covenant had been digitised and much to my delight it was, and I found that James and his wife Margaret had both signed the Covenant and the Declaration papers. I also discovered that several other members of my family on my father’s side of the family tree including David and Tillie Holmes (both of whom also lived in the Fountain) had signed the Covenant. I am actually quite excited about the digitised version of the Ulster Covenant because I have found so many different members of my family who had signed the document, which is wonderful because of the historic connotations of the Covenant within the history of this country. I was just wondering, do you have access to documents relating to the UVF? I am just curious because David Holmes, whom is related to my father’s uncle, had, I believe been a member of the ‘B-Special’s’ in the city and I was just wondering whether or not he may have been in the UVF and also Alexander Jameson whom married Martha Sterling (sister of Edward Sterling). 

Again, I cannot thank you enough for your help, it is very much appreciated!

[rob elliott]

Hi,
Goes to show how complicated things can be in Ireland.
Frederick Lawrence looks to be English, born in India. Father from Ipswich.
So i assume his father was a soldier too! Fred served in the Boer war.
This information comes from the 'Diamond war memorial project' compiled by Trevor Temple, a Fountain resident.
Have you seen it. It is on line, just google 'Diamondwarmemorialproject' no spaces.

The irony is that in 1914 the Ulster Volunteer Force was on line for a confrontation with the British Government and the Irish Volunteers in theory were on the side of the government.
The UVF had specific instructions not to have any confrontation with the Irish Volunteers as their argument was not with them. So the UVf were the rebels.

Regarding the information about James Allan in the UVF, i have the membership rolls for the City.
Do you have any addresses for the others you want checking as the rolls are by address and not name. This is the formation they used so that whole streets of men were together in a section.

There is not a lot of information on the activity of the City UVF. Nothing to check individual members against. They held camps in Donegal and at Baronscourt  in Tyrone during 1914.
It is very likely that James Allan served as some sort of an instructor as ex-servicemen were in high demand to teach the basics of drill to the others.

The Covenant is a great source of research, you can use it in conjunction with the 1901/11 census which is also on-line.

Rob

[cassidys17]

Hi,
Thanks again for the information! It is very much appreciated!



Thank you also for the link to the Diamond War Memorial Project! – Frederick Lawrence’s father was indeed in the British Army; he was initially in the West Suffolk Militia and then served as a Sergeant in the West Norfolk Regiment and served in India. I did not realise that there were indeed membership roles for the UVF, so it is very exciting to learn that there are. My knowledge of the UVF and this period of Irish history is not particularly strong, but I do believe that the UVF were a particularly well ordered organisation – can I ask whether or not the Irish Volunteers were similarly well organised and if there are records for the Irish Volunteers akin to the UVF? It is, as you say quite ironic that the UVF were indeed the rebels. As you say, the Covenant really is a great source of information and I was actually pleasantly surprised when I came across the Covenant online because I had no idea that it had been digitised. If it is not too much trouble, could I possibly ask if David Holmes was a member of the UVF? He lived in 104 Fountain Street and signed the Covenant along with his wife Tillie in 1912. I am afraid that I do not know where Alexander Jameson actually lived in the city. I had actually thought that I would find members of the Sterling family – who are connected to my family – including John and Edward, who were politically active and lived in the Fountain area of the city, had signed the Covenant – but unfortunately it would appear that they did not. Edward Sterling lived in the same house as James and Margaret Allen, 10 Kennedy Street, and he also had an address at 35 Fountain Street and 18 Kennedy Street. Also, if you do not mind, Samuel (Sammy) Lawrence who lived at 25 Walkers Place or 16 Long Tower Street?

I hope that this is not too much trouble!
Many thanks!

[rob elliott]

Have  had a look through the UVF rolls -

At the moment can't find any Sterlings'.

Would Samuel Lawrence be UVF if Fred was IV's. Can't find him at Long Tower or Walkers Place.

The Holmes family much better.

John Holmes, aged 28, UVF No 1592
David, aged 25, UVF No 1593
Samuel, aged 22, UVF No 1594

All of 104 Fountain Street.

So checked something else out.
David [25499]and Samuel [25467] served in the 10th Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers [Derry Volunteers] during the 1st War.

David listed on the 1918 Absent Voters list for Londonderry.

Both named on the Carlisle Road Presbyterian Church memorial roll for those that served.
My grandmothers two brothers are named on the memorial rolls too. Thomas and David McConnell.

In addition both brothers are named in rolls in the recent reprint of the book 'The Derrys-History of the 10th Inniskillings'.

Now what is surprising is that David had already joined the army and been discharged as being unlikely to become an efficient soldier. In March 1915 he joined the Royal Army Medical Corps, but was quickly discharged. He named Samuel and John as next of kin plus another brother Frank and sister Lizzie.
He gave an address of 13 Fountain St when he joined.
Later in the 1920's there was a John Holmes living at that address.

Rob