1841 census - London debtors prisons' location

[Paul5]

Hi

There was a previous topic on this board asking for the piece number for the Fleet Prison in the 1841 census. Very useful.

Can anyone point me to the piece numbers for the other London debtors prisons in that census i.e. Marshalsea, Queen's Bench, Whitecross Street and Horsemonger Lane?

Thank you

[Valda]

Hi

There was also Whitechapel Debtor's prison - not sure of the actual date of closure.

The Fleet  City of London closed in 1842
The King's Bench prison Southwark was officially renamed the Queen's Bench in 1842 (though unofficially known as this once Queen Victoria ascended the throne in 1837). It shut in 1862
Marshalsea prison Southwark closed in 1842
Whitecross Street prison in 1870 (the 1869 Debtor's Act abolished imprisonment for debt). This prison was built to ease the prison population in Newgate. It was a City of London prison

Other prisons also had debtors but these were the main prisons for debtors and also those committing offences such as libel or contempt court. Marhalsea was also used by the admiralty for sailors who had committed acts of piracy.

Horsemonger Lane prison is an example of a prison that was not specifically a debtors' prison. It closed in 1878 and was Surrey’s principle prison. It housed debtors as well as criminals and was Surrey’s place of execution.


If you use Your Archives for 1841 census registration districts you can track prisons to their streets and census piece numbers as long as you roughly know which districts these prisons were in.

http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=Category:1841_census_registration_districts

you don't even need to know the street because conveniently prisons are cross referenced under prison e.g.

Marshalsea and Queen's Bench

http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=Place:St_George_Southwark_Registration_District,_1841_Census_Street_Index_P-S

Fleet

http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=Place:West_London_Registration_District,_1841_Census_Street_Index_P-S

Whitecross

http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=Place:East_London_Registration_District,_1841_Census_Street_Index_P-S


Regards

Valda

[Paul5]

What a great website - thanks so much for the links.

If only the full sub-registration and enumeration districts were listed to enable searching on Ancestry...

[Valda]

Hi

Not sure I understand - for instance the full reference given for the Fleet prison from the website is

Reference H0107 726
Book number 6
Folio 1-7

http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=Place:West_London_Registration_District,_1841_Census_Street_Index_C-F

In this case 1-7 is actually the page number. The reference put into Ancestry on the 1841 census page search brings up the Fleet prison.

That's actually the purpose of the website to allow you to find the street/institution on the census by giving you the reference needed.

Also actually clicking on Your Archives for Fleet Prison also cross references you to information on the Fleet prison held by The National Archives and further information on the prison

http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=Place:Fleet_Prison,_West_London_Registration_District



Regards

Valda

[Paul5]

Sorry, what I meant was I can't see anywhere on the Ancestry search page which allows the reference number to be input and searched upon - it only allows 'browsing' where you have to pick the parish and enumeration district by name from a drop-down menu.

I am probably being really thick!

[Valda]

Hi

The 1841 Ancestry census web page

http://search.ancestry.com/iexec/?htx=List&dbid=8978&offerid=0%3a7858%3a0


which includes spaces to input the references to search on

Census   
                  Piece     Book    Folio    Page
HO107/
 
 
Regards


Valda

[grosehodge]

Hi,
 I'm pretty experienced re: Ancestry, Findmypast, digitized newspapers and archive centres. I'm struggling here too. I've have never needed to  search for a census page by its reference numbers but am now trying to do just that and  find the debtors prison in Whitecross Street in 1841. I have found the NA page 'Your Archives' via Valda's link (thanks) and the entry for the prison therein. Here is what it gives:

Reference: HO 107/727   

Book: 12   

Folio: 1-11

I had no problem finding the Ancestry page to enter these details but nothing I do seems to get me to what I want. I'm getting closer by entering 'East London' as the registration district and 'Cripplegate' as the sub-registration district (without that it was hopeless with hits from round the country!).

Valda, if you get this message can you possibly, line by line as per Ancestry's 1841 Census page, tell me what to enter and also confirm that you've done it yourself and you personally have gotten to the Whitecross prison pages.
Many thanks
Paul

[Paul5]

Hi

FindMyPast Support confirmed to me in 2015 that these pages were missing from its site. As I can't find them anywhere, I take it that these pages are lost forever before any site starting digitising the paper census records.

P

[grosehodge]

Hi Paul
Thanks for that. I was trying it on both Ancestry & FMPast. In the end I decided to try one of the other links Valda gave and managed to find the Fleet Prison no problem. I was going to give it a go with the other prison links Valda gave but your message just popped up.

I know from Googlebooks that Whitecross Street Prison was in the parish of St Giles (Without) Cripplegate.
Th National Archives 'Your Archives' page says the prison is in 'book12', yet there does not seem to be a book 12 to be seen on A or FMPast. A reference for something that doesn't appear to exist! Either they are physically missing or have degraded so much that no amount of digital enhancement will help.

I will research further ( perhaps at the National Archives) and am surprised that there seems to be no discussion on any chat-sites about missing census records for this once well known prison.
Many thanks again
Paul