1861 and 1881 Census Lookup pls

[gayze]

Hi and I hope I have posted this topic in the correct area.

I already have Cenus for 1871 for this family, RG10/ 5575
John Williams  born abt 1830 in Carmenthshire  occup Miller.
Margaret born abt 1839  Millers Wife and the children at that time
William
Ann
John
Caroline...
but I am looking for the 1861 Census where I believe they had a child Rees..born abt 1859..
I am also looking for the 1881 Census when another child would have been added, Rowland born abt 1880 .   
John was deceased by 1891 (I don't know when or where)  and I have the census for 1891 onwards with Margaret as a widow..
John's son, John married in 1893 and he states his fathers occupation was  Miller.
The only record I can find on the LDS 1881 Census is for a Shoemaker..
 I feel I must have missed John Williams (Miller) in the 1881 census and can't seem to reconcile his going from a Miller to a Shoemaker.
I would really appreciate some help,
Thanks Gay

[heywood]

Hi Gay,

you say you believe they had a son Rees b c 1859, however William is also shown as born at that time 

Do you know when John and Margaret married- could it have been after 1861 and John was married to someone else in 1861? (Not that I can match him up yet).

There are a few Johns who are Farmers and I wondered if they could become Millers - there is a stronger link than, as you say, a shoemaker 

Yet the shoemaker has John, Caroline and Rowland.

They do look very similar

regards
heywood

[gayze]

Oops!  Sorry about that.
I really made a mess of that didn't I?
I have  William born 1859,
Rees born abt 1863, but her doesn't appear on the 1871 Census.
Rowland born abt 1872,
These are from the LDS OPRs   Llanddeusant, Carmarthen, Wales Batch
 No.  C099321
 I have no idea when John (snr) married, or to whom...

The reason I am reluctant at this time, to accept the Shoemaker in the 1881 Census, is because of the greater age difference between John and Margaret, compared to the 1871 Census, despite the  children being the same.
I agree that a Farmer is closer to a Miller than a shoemaker.   
It seems odd , if indeed the father was a shoemaker in 1881, that on his marriage certificate,  his son would identify the earlier occupation of  his father as being a Miller, rather than his later occupation of Shoemaker.  (If I haven't confused you, ços its confusing me) 

I am trying to narrow down the time frame for his death in the hope of identifying his parents.
John Williams is such a popular name in Wales... and I am assuming there is the normal naming pattern in Wales.
Sorry for the confusion....Its late and I need to go to bed to clear my head again, I think.
Gay

[heywood]

If Rees was born in Llandeusant - registration district is Llandovery and there are several births and deaths for Rees Williams 1861-1871   

Equally there are several possible marriages for a John Williams  to a Margaret. If there was a second marriage.

[gayze]

I  know, I know.
There are just so many possibilities.. that's why I am looking for the death of John Williams (father) which might help identify his wife's maiden name, and his parents.
John the son, is found in the 1891 Census boarding with John Jones and his wife Emma ,
Jones families seem to be living in the same area and even next door in each of the Census..including a 68 yr old Rees Jones in the 1881 Census for the shoemaker.
I know it is as  popular a surname as Williams, but perhaps Jones could be the maiden name of Margaret...but her death certificate is probably the only way to find that..
In 1911 Census Margaret Williams was 70 years of age and living at 27 Windsor Rd., Barry, Glamorgan
I've looked at the Free BMDs and there are just too many deaths  for Margarets around the right age, that I think I have come to a dead end.
Any advice gratefully received..thanks.
Gay

[heywood]

The death certificate will only give cause of death and the informant 

Whoo is your ancestor?  I just want to make sure you have the right family from which census.

heywood 

[heywood]

something to think about:

1861 RG9; Piece: 4118; Folio: 42; Page: 5

Village Llanddausant

John Williams 32 yrs Shoemaker b Brecon Ystrad
Ruth Williams 37 yrs b Llanddausant Carmarthenshire
Elizabeth Williams 11 yrs b Llangadock, Carmarthenshire
William Williams 2 yrs Llanddeusant, Carmarthenshire
William Leyshon visitor  83 yrs Llangake, Glamorgan

Free BMD has a death for a Ruth Williams March quarter  1862 Llandovery

If Rees was born c 1863 to John and Margaret - marriage would have to take place 1862-63

There is one- december quarter 1862- Margaret Prichard but then it all falls apart because I can't see her in 1861  So this speculation may be just that and amount to nothing.

[heywood]

Just read the ages and it isn't that different in the two censuses:

1871 - 41 yrs and 32 yrs
1881 - 54 yrs and 41 yrs

That's not unusual in censuses

1851 HO107; Piece: 2470; Folio: 41; Page: 5

Margaret Prichard 11 yrs born Llandausant

father Rees

1861 RG9; Piece: 4118; Folio: 25; Page: 3
family here but no Margaret 

I think Margaret is here- transcribed as Richard but census looks like Prichard ('r'- very small)

1861 RG9; Piece: 4118; Folio: 15; Page: 7

She is a servant.
So that is a theory to think about.

good luck
heywood

[gayze]

Thanks for the new options...and I had seen Ruth, and kept her in the back of my mind..but Pritchard is a new thought,

I am doing this for my brother in law..His grandparents were  John Williams and Mary Power..(dau of Edward Power) mrd 1893

In 1901 They are in 108 Pothkerry Rd, Barry, Glamorgan..children Edward 5; Constance 4; May 2; and Wilfred 5 months.
Also in 1901 his mother Margaret is at 37 Harbour Rd, Barry, Glamorgan.
(Henry T, grandson may be the child of one of her daughters, Ann or Caroline)
In 1911, Constance is having a sleepover at Grans at 27 Windsor Rd, Barry. 
John's birthplace is stated by the enumerator in the 1901 Census as  Anglesey, but then in the 1911 as Llanddeusant/.   Are they one and the same.. I'm afraid Welsh geography baffles me.

Perhaps John did revert to Shoemaking in the 1881 Census before he died...perhaps it was a less strenuous job than milling.

You've given heaps to think about.   I'll get on to rechecking everthing again and hope my b-in-law has some little piece of information to help .
thanks and cheers for now
Gay