Henry Ward ("Harry") Payn

[bronmark5156]

Hi,

I'm looking for Harry!  Harry Payn was married to  Agnes Ella Smith ("Ella") in 1930 and lived in Auckland NZ.  (Both are now deceased).  However,  he was previously married to a Sophia ("Sophie?") Carroll, and both lived in Christchurch from 1915 to 1930.  I can find no other information on Sophie or Harry, esp. prior to 1930.  Harry was said to have been born in England in the 1880s and was apparently in the Royal Navy.  Not much more to go on...where might I find more on Harry?

[lizdb]

How old was he when he married Ella?

There is this possible birth - but it would make him 60 at that marriage

Birth
oct/Nov/Dec 1870
Coventry 6d 438
Harry Ward Payne

[lizdb]

There is also this I found in 1901 - doesnt tie up with that birth, (wrong place but right age)  but might be worth looking at

RG13 5330 71 4
Royal Navy at Sea or in Ports abroad
Bay of Gibraltar

Harry Payne 31 single Petty Officer 1st class bn Christchurch Hampshire

(I didnt know if the Christchurch you mentioned was Hampshire England, or somewhere in NZ)

[bronmark5156]

Harry lived in Christchurch NZ while married to Sophia.  He may have been born between 1884 and 1887 in England (his death certificate and marriage certs  say either Loughborough Junction or Braintree, Essex). It is known (yet) when he arrived in NZ.  Harry married Ella  on 29 April 1930.  The marriage cert stated his age as 43 (16 years older than Ella!).  I have also found out that Sophia may have come from Western Australia, but again unknown how they came together??!!

[jorose]

http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/
There's also on NZ archway a Henry Ward Payn WWI record (digitised). He was b. 16 Mar 1887 Loughborough Junction! parents Harry and Louisa, had been in NZ 5 years in 1917. He was married and his wife given as Louisa Adel Payn with an address in Christchurch. Later he lists her as Louisa Adel Carroll and place of marriage Christchurch.
He also claims to have no previous military service.

Compare, perhaps, with the Henry Ward Pope b. 16 Mar 1887 Camberwell shown on http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/ as enlisted in the RN.   (Interesting given the information given on his war record: I think his father may be Henry and his mother Louise Adele nee Atkinson; there's also a possible sister Louisa Adele Pope)

[bronmark5156]

THanks, I obtained a copy of the naval record and it certainly looks like it's Henry!  I also checked the birth certificate and census under POPE and it all lines up  (including a sister with her mother's name - Louise Adele).  So it appears Henry has changed his surname at some point.  The Naval Record indicates that Henry's address upon joining the Navy was "TS Arethusa" which I understand was a boarding and training ship for wayward boys!  I was wondering where I might find lists of boys residing on the "TS Arethusa" (moored on the Thames in Kent) round 1900.  I also can't seem to find Henry Ward Pope or his mother (Louise Adele Pope) in the 19014 or 1911 census (they are all there as a family in the 1891 census).

[jorose]

Hi, can you post the details you have from the 1891 census (that's one I don't have access to), or give us the ages/birthplaces of his parents?
And when you say you couldn't find Henry or his mother in 1901/1911, do you mean you've found the father and sister? If so, what is Henry senior's marital status given as?

http://newspapers.bl.uk/ - there seems to be some court case listed here in 1898 regarding Louise Adele Pope (charged, at Lambeth, along with a John Gabbitas, for more details you'd have to get access - you can pay for just a day pass).

That might explain her absence in 1901. Henry as well if he was in some sort of home/institution at the time might be difficult to find.

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/index.html?trainingships/trainingships.shtml
 - there's an address here, or try http://www.charitiesdirect.com/charities/shaftesbury-homes-and-arethusa-311697.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,438303.0.html
 - someone on this thread did get in touch with them about the records, seems like there is a cost though.

[bronmark5156]

Hi,  thank you for the newspaper reference, it looks like our family again! (Louise Adele stole goods worth 44 pounds from husband Henry!). She was committed for trial at the South London Sessions so I will need to see if there are any records there!   Any ideas?  Prison records?

Census details of the Pope family..
1891 census, Newington

Henry Pope Head M 27 Printer – compositor b Bermondsey
Louise A Pope wife 29 Music teacher pianoforte b Appleby Westmoreland
Henry W Pope son 4 b Kensington London
Louise A Pope daughter 2 b Brixton

1901

Henry Pope Head marr 37 Printer compositor b Bermondsey
Louise A Pope daughter 12 b Brixton

you will see them all there...Louise (mother) is a piano teacher (fits in with the family stories).  Yes, father and daughter (Henry and Adele) are living together in 1901 and 1911 and Henry records a 'married' status on both despite no mother there! Henry (senior) born in Bermondsey London in 1863 and Louise (senior) born in Appleby Westmorland in around 1860). 

Will email Shaftesbury Homes now and try my luck.

[jwth]

Louise is found in the 1901 census of Scarborough under then name of Louise A. Atkinson (her maiden name). John Gabbitas is shown here as well, as a lodger.

At this point I'm not really sure what became of her, but I'd be interested in finding out.