American Murder about 1930?

[Trees]

The biggest rogue that walked the world his story starts when he married and possibly murdered a great aunt of mine he rampaged through Australia, NZ and the USA  committing crime and killing a few folk on the way see http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,378617.0.html
Its a long but fantastic story if you get time do read it its better than a novel and several Chatters were involved in finding newspapers and records in the three main countries mentioned.
This one is getting as good but ETO was Edwin Turner Osbaldeston sometimes known as Edwin Charles Pye Turner Osbaldeston   as his story went on so the initials got more his great grandfather was a Charles PYE!

I think Joseph Pye in this hunt was the son of James and Mary Pye from Whiston Lancs in 1830 Have you taken that line any further back?
H

[slc]

Joseph Pye is the son of James Pye and Mary from Whiston Lancs in 1830
I have James Pye back to a James Pye 1811-1886 mother also Mary 1811 - 1885

I have more info on Joe Pye's family however I changed computers and we lost some stuff in the moving of files over to this new now old one as this one is a Vista   I have to look in some of my boxes to find the info.  When found will post

I will read about ETO later tonight as I have cats and dogs to feed the chicken people to put up and a few other things to do befor I can allow myself to get back on computer.

I am now 100% certain that Letitia is Letitia Ellard that I have put her down in Ancestry as Letitia Ellard Pye on her page and have the Pyes as adopted parents and her real parents down in the tree
Have her "adoption" down in facts and trip to St Helens to see her mother and back home to her adopted father  Now when anyone else comes looking for info on the Ellards they will see that Letitia Ellard didn't die or "poof the faries got her" idea..... Now if we can just find out if she was murdered as Aunt Irene said and the circumstances surrounding that.  Sent off for James Henry Green's obit so hopefully next week I will get it back. 

Sharon

[Trees]

I think there is little doubt that she is Letitia Ellard next question is Why did they go/come to America? I can see there were glass factories in Butler and St Helens was that the attration to butler in particular?
Had Elizabeth's family gone before Joseph and Elizabeth or did they come to join them?
Then the biggy how do we find out about her sad end
What happened to Joseph he seems to just disappear too would it be worth following him a bit? Why cant we find any newspaper references? Would the divorce have been mentioned are there any records about that?
Cant wait for James Henry's obit to arrive let's hope it has a few answers.
Trees with many questiond and few ideas???

[slc]

It was Plate glass workers needed in the US that was the reason my lines came here from St Helens. 

In the late 1890s there were only 6 Plate glass factories in the US.  We had other glass factories here befor that but they were the ones that did the bottles and plates ect...  back in the 1880s skilled plate glass workers were needed here in the US and those men came from England, France and Belgian mainly.  Their passage was paid to come over here... In the UK if a glass worker left for glass work  somewhere else they had to pay a fee to get out of their job there... The US glass co's built houses for the workers who came here... When the plate glass factory opened in Butler Pa then the Holdens Pye's and the Naylors went there to work ... My grandfather was the last of the line to work in the Franklin Glass Factory in Butler.  Joe Naylor worked as the accountant and first aid person.  He was creidited with saving the life of one of the men who worked there when he was severly cut by glass.  I remember going there when I was a little girl with my mother to see him.  The housing that the Co built evidently was built to last as when we lived in Butler we lived in one of the row houses that they built...

My G-g-grandfather James Holden came over first in the late 1880s.... He went to Irwin Pa to work in the glass factory there... then in 1891 he sent for my G-G-Grandmother Mary and children James Peter & Kate.... You can find Mary Holden in the 1891 census with the 3 children down as a widow in that census... guess she felt like one with James being so far away...

They came over in June of 1891.  They lived in Irwin Pa and James and son James worked in Jeanette Pa glass factory. 
Then in 1892 as we know Joe Pye and Elizabeth and Letitia came over with my G-grandfather Peter Naylor who was the nephew of Mary Holden and cousin to James Peter Kate and Elizabeth.   Peter Naylor was a plate glass maker....

In 1896  Peter Naylor and his cousin Kate Holden went back to the UK to we think get his mother Alice Cook formerly Naylor nee Garvey to bring over to Pennsylvania... In May of 1897 Peter Naylor and his cousin Kate Holden were married.... whole nother story there...

Peter's brother James Naylor Garvey and his sister Ann Aspinall nee Naylor- Garvey  had come to Pennsylvania in Oct of 1889 James was a glass blower....as was Ann's husband  [ You will find James Naylor in the UK with wife and children down as James Garvey as James was the first of his mother Alice Cook formerly Naylor nee Garvey many woopsies.... when James and family came to the US they went on the boat as Garvey and lived in Pennsylvania as Naylors.... whole nother story there also  So everyone came to Pennsylvania to join family

So it was glass making that brought the families to Pennsylvania....

Joseph Pye died in 1912  His wife Elizabeth died in 1917. 

Newspapers in Pa   Well there are some online and then there are not any on line... they are coming online slowly.... it depends on the area in Pa... Pennsylvania is not easy to search especially when you don't live there anymore.... Google News archives does have papers from Pittsburgh online its just what yrs they have put so far and what is in them... its hard to search for obits and mentions of deaths and divorces... the rootsweb mailing list for the county where Pittsburgh is Allegheney is in the process of doing that now with deaths obits marriages and divorces ect... so far on it I have found my one G-g-grandmothers sister who I have been looking for years obit and married name and found a whole new branch of her family   My grandmother's parents marriage who I never thought I would ever find and mentions of her lines in Beaver Co Pennsylvania... a few marriages ect...BUT nothing on Letitia Green nee Ellard-Pye.... just the 1930 census for her... The divorce would have been in the Pittsburgh papers I would think... unless it happen in Butler then the Butler Eagle is not on line.   

Was Letitia Green in the 1940 census I have no idea as that census is not online yet... I search the google archives alot with her name but its always nothing found.  I do searches for murders in Pittsburgh Pa thinking that it might be in one of those old Murder magazines nothing comes up... as more and more info comes up on the net maybe it will show up one day... if someone from her son's family lines goes looking for their fathers lines and find me they might know what happen  If Aunt Irene was not so closed mouth about the family's dirty laundry that I found then we wouldn't be looking for who what and when we would know... That poor woman would have a heart attack if she had know what I have found out on the family so far...

I sure hope James obit shows something to go on.  All my notes show from talking to Aunt Irene back in the late 60s say is murdered in pa nothing more 

Sharon
 

[Trees]

Sharon you are wonderful such an interesting and full reply So my guess about the glass connection was on the button and you have clarified that well.
I hope if we sit tight sooner or later something will appear on line I wonder if they would look into the archive if we asked the Butler Newspaper directly about the divorce or a suspected murder they would take pity and look for us. If we are lucky and catch them on a poor news day they may do a search do you think or would they charge mighty pence for a search?Are old copies of newspapers kept in local libraries in the States here we would find them on film in the local RO.
I am sure we would all like to know the truth of poor Letitia's end even though she isn't direct line its a very interesting story.
I am wondering why Letitia put her nearest relative as her mother not her father when she came over in 1912 it is more usual to consider the father as next of kin rather than mother isn't it? The family were together in 1911 and Edward didn't die until 1930
Surely one of the family would have remembered a lady visiting from the States in 1912 I would have thought such a visit would have been most memorable and unusual her youngest sibling would have been 11 so the others surely asked "who " the visitor was.
H

[MonicaL]

Sharon, do you know what happened to daughter Dorothy? I see it is likely she never married from comments elsewhere.

Monica

[slc]

No I have no idea what happen to Dorothy Green I know she lived in Pa cause there was a address for her in Aunt Irene's address book but that was years ago...  Its 2 more years befor the 1940 census goes online on Ancestry to see what happen to her and her brother. 

I did this morning call the Butler Co Library to see what they could tell me... Luanne who is head genealogy person there did some cking for me over the phone and told me there was nothing in the index for the Butler Eagle News paper about Letitia Green.  She told me to send to New Castle for a search for 10 years  1930 1940 span for a death for Letitia Green. [there is no obit index in the library in Pittsburgh to ck through ].. that will cost me around 30 some dollars so I will download the paper work for that and send it in ...  I will get that out and in mail tomorrow.  Depending on the person doing the searching for the death certificate sometimes they can't find anything but then you ask for another search and bingo they find it... NC is know for this.

Christine who Letita would have been her G-aunt said that she was sorta iffy about asking any family members questions about if they knew about Letitia  The family didn't even know that Eddie Ellard went to jail for 18 months for stealing a postal letter... that was another suprise to Christine.
We will just have to wait and see if she did ask around about any storys re Letitia.  She might have just been a family secret and only those close to her parents every really knew what happen to her taking her to the grave with them.

That was in 1912 that she went there and she might not have stayed with the Ellard family as there were plenty of Holdens and Pyes and Naylors there she could have stayed with.  Thats a story I would love to know what happen when she went to visit her mother?  She never went back it seems and did they ever write to one another about their lives?   

Genealogy is just not names births deaths marriages and census findings it's lives of people and trying to sort out why things happen to them and made them what they turned out to be.  Sometimes we find out and sometimes we don't.
 
Maybe we will and maybe we won't just have to wait

Sharon

[slc]

UPDATE   Got obit for James Henry Green Jr today

Well I got James's obit in the mail today.


Sun Journal  New Bern SC  Friday 8 June 1990 A4

James Henry Green Jr

James Henry Green Jr of 2703 Trent Road died Thursday at his residence

Funeral is set for 11 am Monday at Saint Paul's Catholic Church Country Club Road with the Father Martin Fitzgerald officiating

Entombment willbe in Greenleaf Memorial Park

He is survivied by his wife Evelyn S Green one foster brother Donald E Steffy of Duquesne Pa and one siser Dorothy Gatto of New Bern

The family will receive friends from 7-9 pm Saturday at Pollock-Wells and Best Funeral Home  There will be a rosary at 730pm Sunday at the funeral home followed by visitation until 9 pm

In lieu of flowers memorials may be made to Craven Country Home Health Hospice  PO Box 1398 New Bern NC 28560 or to Saint Paul's Catholic Church


Well it looks like his sister Dorothy married a man named Gatto and lived in New Bern NC.... but this foster brother Donald E Steffy of Duquesne Pa is a supprise and I am wondering if Letitia remarried after the 1930 census.  I looked on Ancestry for SS index to see if Dorothy died but no Dorothy Gatto in New Bern NC is listed there are 2 others that did die tho 1 in Pa and 1 in Texas   Will see about sending or finding the obits for them either at a library or online. 
 
Name: Dorothy E. Gatto
SSN: 
Last Residence: 15690  Vandergrift, Westmoreland, Pennsylvania, United States of America
Born: 4 Mar 1919
Died: 17 Jun 2000
State (Year) SSN issued: Pennsylvania (Before 1951)


Name: Dorothy A. Gatto
SSN:   
Last Residence: 78639  Kingsland, Llano, Texas
Born: 11 Apr 1919
Died: 2 Aug 2006
State (Year) SSN issued: Pennsylvania (Before 1951

I went on the White pages and found Evelyn Green in New Bern NC  phone number and called the number however no one answered so I left message.... 

Stay tune for part 2  I wonder if I will get a call back....don't know where I got the nerve to do that one never did it befor....
Sharon

[MonicaL]

Sharon

Wow, things are developing. Where, only time will tell....

That obit for James Jnr. has certainly thrown up a number of scenarios.

As for calling and where you got the courage to do so, it's called determination (A.K.A. obsession!). Been there with you on that one so undertand how you feel 

Monica