BBC TV "WDYTYA?" Series 8 Episode #2: Rupert Everett

[Sloe Gin]

There are other terms for 'prostitute' to be found in the censuses - terms which are true euphemisms, rather than other genuine occupations.  One that springs to mind is "nymph of the pavement" 

sorry I can't provide a reference, but I've definitely seen it during my perusings.

[JenB]

There are other terms for 'prostitute' to be found in the censuses - terms which are true euphemisms, rather than other genuine occupations.  One that springs to mind is "nymph of the pavement" 

sorry I can't provide a reference, but I've definitely seen it during my perusings.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,458136.msg3200485.html#msg3200485

[Sloe Gin]

There you go.  Stan's the man!   

[RJ_Paton]

There's two households here - one is definitely a brothel and the other is a family house where the head is a washer woman with a school aged daughter and her lodgers are a dressmaker and a prostitute.

Are we saying the second household is denying it's full of prostitutes?

 Andrews Street 1841 census
 MONTAGUE   15       Brothel Keeper        
CUMMINGS Ann 20       Prostitute     
SMITH Jamina    15       Prostitute
COCHRANE Joan 15       Prostitute
MCKENZIE Ann    15       Prostitute
SMITH Jessie    15       Prostitute
=
Blackfriars Wynd 1841
WATSON    Janet    35       Washer Woman    
WATSON    Isabella   12        -       
YULE       Ann       35       Prostitute        
ROSE Margt       25       Dress Maker

What we are I am saying is what evidence do you have to the contrary regarding their professions ?

As said there are plenty of descriptions of prostitutes and the sex workers (it wasn't illegal for much of that period)

[Sloe Gin]

My question was not directly about Georgina but a general one, are there any studies that tell the ratio and or likelihood? Was it the areas that the "dressmakers" stayed that guided the implication that they told this fib to the census taker? How was it discovered that Dressmaker was the term used and not say Stocking maker?

Good points and I for one would like to know the origins of this particular euphemism.

Are we simply pandering to the prejudices of Victorian Census Enumerators or is it a later invention ?

It is too easy to jump to conclusions and create completely the wrong picture - which was my difficulty with Rupert Everett.

Although I have no doubts that at least some of the "ladies of the night"  may have been forced into that line of work due to poverty and circumstances there are records of others from privileged backgrounds who chose to be involved in that line of work - were they listed as dressmakers ?

I'm not convinced that "dressmaker" was officially a euphemism for prostitute.  It was possibly the case that a lot of dressmakers were also prostitutes (or vice versa!).  For many, it would have been a low-paid job, even no pay at all while they were still learning the skills, and they had to do what they could to get by.  On the other hand, there would have been plenty of respectable dressmakers as well.

Those from privileged backgrounds that you mention - there is no earthly reason why they would describe themselves as dressmakers.  Not sure what you mean by "the prejudices of Victorian Census Enumerators".

One might compare the use of "actress" in the more recent past:  sometimes used in a "nudge, nudge, wink, wink" kind of way.  It would  be clear from the context.  As the actress said to the bishop ....   

[heywood]

I skimmed over something I found on google which was a study of Prostitution at that time- can't find it again    However, I think the point was made that there were many trades which were linked - mainly because of the reasons already stated here- poverty/young women etc. Also, I think, piece work was growing so again young women were employed in the home, sewing for a factory owner.
For some of these, the fact that you were in your own home must have made it easier to have this other trade to supplement their meagre earnings.
One way of identifying possibly,would be the area.  It would be of little use working in the middle of nowhere, so perhaps some dressmakers or similar homeworkers, who were living in ports/inner cities etc may have been prostitutes too or using the word as a cover.
It must have been an awful life for many.
(thanks Rupert for the diversion).

[Nick29]

There's two households here - one is definitely a brothel and the other is a family house where the head is a washer woman with a school aged daughter and her lodgers are a dressmaker and a prostitute.

Are we saying the second household is denying it's full of prostitutes?

 Andrews Street 1841 census
 MONTAGUE   15       Brothel Keeper        
CUMMINGS Ann 20       Prostitute     
SMITH Jamina    15       Prostitute
COCHRANE Joan 15       Prostitute
MCKENZIE Ann    15       Prostitute
SMITH Jessie    15       Prostitute
=
Blackfriars Wynd 1841
WATSON    Janet    35       Washer Woman    
WATSON    Isabella   12        -       
YULE       Ann       35       Prostitute        
ROSE Margt       25       Dress Maker

What we are I am saying is what evidence do you have to the contrary regarding their professions ?

As said there are plenty of descriptions of prostitutes and the sex workers (it wasn't illegal for much of that period)

Something didn't have to be illegal for you to be driven out of your village.   My grandfather got one of the village girls pregnant, and his whole family (who were very much part of the village church) had to leave because of the shame brought upon them.

[Rena]

There's two households here - one is definitely a brothel and the other is a family house where the head is a washer woman with a school aged daughter and her lodgers are a dressmaker and a prostitute.

Are we saying the second household is denying it's full of prostitutes?

 Andrews Street 1841 census
 MONTAGUE   15       Brothel Keeper        
CUMMINGS Ann 20       Prostitute     
SMITH Jamina    15       Prostitute
COCHRANE Joan 15       Prostitute
MCKENZIE Ann    15       Prostitute
SMITH Jessie    15       Prostitute
=
Blackfriars Wynd 1841
WATSON    Janet    35       Washer Woman    
WATSON    Isabella   12        -       
YULE       Ann       35       Prostitute        
ROSE Margt       25       Dress Maker

What we are I am saying is what evidence do you have to the contrary regarding their professions ?

As said there are plenty of descriptions of prostitutes and the sex workers (it wasn't illegal for much of that period)

I'm actually quite shocked to think that future am.researchers will look at the 1951, 1961 and 1971 census and think that one of my village neighbours who took in washing was a prostitute because that's another name for one.  Not to mention the busy dressmaker in this small town who during the 1980's and 1990's often did a professional job taking in and shortening my clothes because my sewing proficiency isn't good enough.

[millymcb]

Before we get back on track discussing WDYTYA an Rupert Everett - can anyone tell me where this "dressmaker" thing came from.  This assertion pops up every now and then on Rootschat - (if you search dressmaker + prostitution you find quite a few threads.  I've had a look through some of them but they just seem to state this as a fact  without saying where the fact originally came from.

is it true? if so how do we know? or is it just a genealogical urban myth?

Milly