GRO fees

[MuttleyS]

Paragraph 2.12 of the Trading Standards Information Pack for Businesses would appear to give the GRO a get out clause from the DSR's

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft698.pdf

So is that saying that if the GRO argue that they are fullfilling a 'statutory function' then they would be exempt?

What is the definition of a 'statutory function' in this context?

The information they supply is public information and they are only able to charge for it because the information is not available for personal research anywhere else.

I happen to think these records should be available to view personally at somewhere like the records office in Kew, as are most other public records.

[Nick29]

If you have ordered using the reference number and supplied no other information why should you expect a refund?  You will presumably have been sent exactly what you ordered.

Not necessarily.  I ordered a death certificate using a reference number, date and name, and when the certificate arrived, the name was different (the surname was right, but the christian name was wrong).  The reference number was correct.  I complained to the GRO, and they credited me with a full refund - I didn't even have to send the certificate back.

[davidft]

I'm not sure if this has come up before but I am surprised if it hasn't.

If buying online, you give the index number for a certificate and when it arrives it turns out that you ordered the one for the wrong person, why can't you get a full refund?

  I love that. If you think about it if that rule was followed you would never have to pay for another certificate again as when they arrived (and after you had photocopied them) you could return them for whatever spurious reason you wanted saying they were the wrong ones and get a refund.


What you are actually buying is the certificate for the reference name  and number you quoted. If its the wrong one its not the GRO's fault as they have provided what you quoted.

Personally I have always found the GRO helpful. For example I wanted the death certificate of a Thomas Thirlwell but there were two of the same name in the same registration district and same quarter. I phoned the GRO told them what i wanted but there were two references. Gave them a few more details and they looked out the right one and sent it to me

So I guess if you have several possibles then either phone the GRO or the local registration office and more often than not they will be helpful

[MuttleyS]

I'm not sure if this has come up before but I am surprised if it hasn't.

If buying online, you give the index number for a certificate and when it arrives it turns out that you ordered the one for the wrong person, why can't you get a full refund?

  I love that. If you think about it if that rule was followed you would never have to pay for another certificate again as when they arrived (and after you had photocopied them) you could return them for whatever spurious reason you wanted saying they were the wrong ones and get a refund.


What you are actually buying is the certificate for the reference name  and number you quoted. If its the wrong one its not the GRO's fault as they have provided what you quoted.

Personally I have always found the GRO helpful. For example I wanted the death certificate of a Thomas Thirlwell but there were two of the same name in the same registration district and same quarter. I phoned the GRO told them what i wanted but there were two references. Gave them a few more details and they looked out the right one and sent it to me

So I guess if you have several possibles then either phone the GRO or the local registration office and more often than not they will be helpful

I agree that it leaves the door open for unscrupulous users but, if you think about it, that is exactly the same situation with CDs and DVDs. BUT (although some people no doubt abuse the system) most people are fair in the way they buy CDs and only return them if they have really made a mistake. I believe CDs and DVDs are covered by the DSR.

True it is not the GRO's fault but neither is it the consumers'. As with any other purchase online it is never the suppliers fault, BUT they are still required to give a full refund by law under the DSR. So why should the GRO be any different?

Your advice about contacting the GRO is good advice but I am sure there are situations where you would not be able to give them sufficient information to find the right one. I'm thinking of people with the name Smith, Brown, Jones, Williams etc.

These are the situations I am talking about. The only real way is to be able to do the research yourself, being able to see the information on the certificate.

I cannot think of any other online purchases that consumers make where the product is completely unseen.

[RJ_Paton]

What you are actually buying is the certificate for the reference name  and number you quoted. If its the wrong one its not the GRO's fault as they have provided what you quoted.

I personally believe that the GRO would be able to establish they are acting within their statutory capacity in providing the certificates and therefore exempt from the Distance Selling Regulations. A case would have to be made arguing that the GRO in providing certificates for purposes other than that for which they were originally intended were now acting in a "Commercial Capacity" to remove this exemption.

However if the GRO  were not exempt  it does not a matter if they have provided exactly what you ordered, the DSR's give the consumer a 7 day "cooling off" period during which time they can reject the goods/services provided without providing any reason.

As has been pointed out the unscrupulous could use this as a means of never paying for a certificate again but it could have other implications for the GRO and the consumers (us) amongst which could be a massive price increase to cover the costs involved or even in a worst case scenario the GRO withdraws all facilities for Distance selling ..

It is an interesting point which Trading Standards should be able to clarify.

[Plummiegirl]

Stan

You stated in one of your replies that the death must be registered in the area/district it occurrred in.

Is this a more recent (post 1950's) law.

My g/grandfather died in Reigate, Surrey, but his daughter (my gran) registered his birth in Westminster (this was in the 1940's).

Also my mum died in Southwark, but I had to go to Lambeth to register her death, I found this very odd.  This was in the mid 1990's

[toni*]

Deaths have always had to be registered where In the district where they occurred although I do not know if you could register a death by declaration like you can with a birth. (My Father was registered by declaration) deaths had to be registered within 8 days of there occurrence now reduced to 5 days.
I have to agree with Behindthefrongs
The GRO are providing what you have ordered so you shouldn’t be entitled to a refund if what you ordered is not what you thought it would be. I suspect they have a get out clause on their T & C’s
The local register office cannot tell you what information is held on a certificate however they can answer yes or no questions.

[RJ_Paton]

Playing Devil's Advocate here

The GRO are providing what you have ordered so you shouldn’t be entitled to a refund if what you ordered is not what you thought it would be. I suspect they have a get out clause on their T & C’s

Legally if they are NOT exempt from the DSR's it doesn't matter if they have provided exactly what you ordered as the 7 day cooling off period would apply. Again, putting something in their T&C's would not exempt them from this particular piece of legislation but would in fact probably put them in more trouble as you cannot choose to exempt yourself by whatever terms you make up. (A number of firms have fallen foul of this by trying to charge a "restocking" fee but have found themselves on the wrong end of a Trading Standards Court Case)

It all boils down to the meaning of "Statutory Function" and whether in providing certificates to persons other than those named on those certificates the GRO is acting within its Statutory remit.

[Plummiegirl]

Surely we have all ordered certificates hoping that the one we have ordered is the "right" one.  Only to find when it turns up it was the other one we should have ordered.  Surely you have ordered a specific certificate, given the right name & reference number, surely under the legaliities of "sale of goods" you have received exactly what you ordered.  Not the GRO's fault that it is not the certificate you were hoping it would be, nor is it your fault.  And even when the GRO still did the reference checking you could still get the wrong certificate if you ordered a certificate for John Smith, son of Fred Smith & Joan Jones as there could easily still be more than one (I know that this too happened to me, so who was to blame there?)

I know I have around 6 or 7 which are "wronguns".  But never thought to worry, you makes your choice, pays your fee and hopes for the best.

If people were to now start returning certificates they have ordered using the correct details they have found on FreeBMD etc., and demanding a refund under "sale of goods act" then the next step the GRO would in all probability make would be to stop this service altogether and then where would we be.

I have twice tried to order specific certificates from Greenwich Registrars and they were unable to find either, yet when I got them from the GRO they were exactly what I required.  Dates, names & district 100% correct, but Greenwich had been unable to find them.