Sugden

[sugsy]

Hi Lisa,
did you get my email address okay?
Cheers
Phil

[Lisa B]

Hi Phil
Yes I did. Did you get the article OK? Lisa

[sugsy]

Hi Valda,

I remember at the beginning of this thread that you said perhaps there is no connection between the Samuel Sugden born in Leeds in 1798 and the Samuel Sugden born in Shoreditch in 1770.
I'm not sure myself now - however I've been able to find a couple of connections:

1) Both of them were registered as artificial florists at some time in their lives ( although that by itself could just be coincidence)

2) The only connection that seems to show a link is the Rodney Street address: as far as I can see, Samuel 1798 had 2 children registered (Louise 1832 and Mary Ann 1833) with Rodney Street
as his address.  After that he is only found in Hornsey I think.

However, in 1841, Samuel 1770 is living there with Sarah aged 30 ( not born in borough) . I'm not sure who this Sarah is? Is it Samuel 1770's daughter?(For which I don't think I have a birth...there is a Sarah born to him in Dorking but that was in 1829 )
 Or is she related to Samuel 1798?
Either way, both Samuels seem to have a common connection with this Rodney Street address!

3) Finally, it is curious that Samuel 1798 ( who I think is the father of the illegitimate child) gives Rodney St as the address when he takes Rachel Rawlinson ( called Sugden for convenience we imagine) to register the child. So there is another connection. I cannot believe it is the 1770 Samuel who is the father ...he was 70 !!!( And the other Samuel was living in Hornsey with Rachel's sister)

What do you think Valda? Is there any other connection which could establish whether the 2 Samuel's are related?
Grateful for any help as ever.
Thanks.
Phil

[sugsy]

Valda,

The Sarah born in Dorking is of course William's daughter not Samuel 1770's...sorry about the error.

Phil

[Valda]

Hi

The birth of the illegitmate Sugden wasn't registered - she was baptised. Parents, one or either are not necessarily present at baptisms as on adult baptisms. Rachel may just have been there on her own.

There easily seems enough connections as the thread has gone along to tie the two Samuels together with also William and John.

I think Sarah is Samuel senior's daughter on the 1841 census - the daughter baptised 1801 in Leeds (adult ages, those over 15 were usually rounded down to the nearest 5 on the 1841 census, but that would still be a slight more adjustment to get to 30) so maybe a later Sarah?

1871 census RG10 429 folio 60
12 and 16 Aldermanbury St Mary The Virgin Aldermanbury, London
Sarah Sugden 66 Unmarried Housekeeper Leeds, Yorkshire
with two servants and a watchman on duty

with Samuel junior as his sister on the 1881 and 1891 censuses in Edmonton

More interesting in where she is and who she is with on the 1851 census

1851 census HO107 15?3 or 8 folio 154
31 Rodney Street St James Clerkenwell
Sarah Sugden 85 Head Widow Artificial florist Leeds Yorkshire
Sarah Sugden 40 Daughter Unmarried Artificial florist Leeds Yorkshire
William Sugden 27 Grandson Unmarried Warehouseman Dorking Surrey
John Sugden 24 Grandson Unmarried Warehouseman Southwark Surrey
Samuel Sugden 22 Grandson Warehousman St Pancras Middlesex
plus 1 house servant

Most likely death registration though there is one in Stepney in the same quarter

Deaths Sep 1858   Sugden  Sarah    London City  1c 55


John the grandson was the son of John and Martha

6th May 1821 St Mary, Newington
John Sugden
Martha Collitt
Bachelor and spinster of the parish
both signed
Witnesses William Williams and F Collitt

St Saviour Southwark 16th November 1823 born 20th February 1820
Thomas Collett Sugden parents  John and Martha, St Georges, father's occuaption watchmaker

St Saviour Southwark 18th August 1822 born 16th May 
Henry Sugden parents John and Martha, Talbot Inn, father's occupation Carrier

Baptism in Dorking already given

16th April 1826 St Mary Magdalen Old Fish Street City of London  born 23rd January
John Sugden parents John and Martha, New Inn Old Change, father's occupation Book keeper

Samuel and Elizabeth's son John died young

St Sepulchre 14th February 1827
John Sugden 8 months, Angel Court

as did their son Frederick

same church 10th November 1827
Frederick Sugden aged 3, Angel Court

St Pancras Parish Church 3rd July 1860
John Sugden Full Bachelor Warehousman St Mary Aldermanbury City of London Dead
Maria Linsell Full Spinster St Pancras John Linsell Dead
Both signed
Witnesses Wm Geo Garnier? and Lydia Lo?

This would be the John the nephew in Sugden, Son and Nephew


Regards

Valda

[sugsy]

Great stuff Valda...I'll get looking again at my notes!

Many thanks as ever!

Phil

[sugsy]

Hi Valda,

If I've got this right, you are saying that on that 1851 Census:

Sarah 85 is the widow of Samuel (b.1770) and she is therefore Sarah Hutchinson.

Sarah daughter 40 is the daughter of the above Sarah (Hutchinson) and Samuel ( b.1770) and therefore ALSO the sister (b.1801 Leeds) of Samuel (b.1798 Leeds)  The only problem is as you say her age is quite a bit out on the census reports...unless the date of baptism is a misprint...not 1801 but 1810 in which case the ages would tally. OR as you say there could be a later Sarah ( dau of Samuel 1770) but we have never found her...

William (g/son 27 of Sarah (Hutchinson)) is the son of William Sugden (b.1794 Leeds) living in Dorking. And this latter William (b.1794) is brother to Samuel (b.1798 Leeds).

Which all means that  Samuel Sugden (b.1798) is a son of Samuel (b.1770 in Shoreditch).

Have I understood it correctly?

Phil

[Valda]

Hi

Sarah junior's age on death is more consistent with the 1801 baptism

Deaths Sep 1896   
Sugden  Sarah  94  Edmonton  3a 242

1891 censuses 87
1881 census 77

When younger an 'age adjuster' who didn't quite age with the times.


The 1851 census at 31 Rodney Street is useful because it brings various parts of the family together

Sarah senior and junior and three grandsons/nephews depending on which Sarah they are relating to. Samuel we know to be the son of Samuel junior, William born Dorking son of William and now John son of John who (john junior) marries a Linsell (some relation to Samuel junior's second wife) - so the three sons of the three brothers.

The only child of Samuel and Sarah's missing/nothing is known of, of those baptised in Leeds, is Hannah Maria 1803.


Regards

Valda

[sugsy]

So that means we can say that Samuel junior(1798) IS the son of Samuel (b1770) ?

In my notes I have a marriage of Hannah Maria  to Richard Bartlett at St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey on 22 January 1826. Then later we have their child Louisa Bartlett , b or c. 6/9/1845 in Dorking. (Dorking connection again!)

And Louisa Bartlett  (aged 15 born in Dorking) is down as niece to Sarah ( Samuel jnr's sister) aged 46 in the 1861 Aldermanbury census ( didn't note whether 12 or 16).
John Sugden is on the 1871 census at Highbury Grove aged 45, and he died 3/11/1884 at 29, Highbury Grove.

Phil