Sugden

[jennifer c]

Have you got the family in 1861 census?  RG9/797/66

Jennifer

[pDim]

Hi thanks for your help. I think the Samuel married 1793 to Sarah might be the Samuel I'm looking for. Because they had a son in 1798 also called Samuel as above. Don't think the warehouseman is the right one because Samuel and his son were both listed as Gentleman.

[Eyesee]

There is a marriage for a Samuel SUGDEN to an Elizabeth MORSE at St Martin in the Fields Westminster on 11 May 1819, which might be his first wife.

St Sepulchre Holborn
1822 May 22, Maria, d/o Samuel & Elizabeth SUGDEN, No 5 Angel Court, Artificial flower maker
1824 Aug 22, Frederick, s/o ditto
1826 Jun 7, John, s/o ditto

St Pancras Church
1826 Jan 25, Elizabeth, d/o Samuel & Elizabeth SUGDEN, Angel Court, Flower maker, born 1825 Dec 18

St James Clerkenwell
1830 Sep 19, Emily, d/o Samuel & Elizabeth SEBDEN, Chapel Court, Flower maker. born 1830 Aug 20
1832 Oct 14, Louisa, d/o Samuel & Elizabeth SUGDEN, Rodney St, Artificial florist, born 1832 Aug 24
1833 Oct 20, Mary Ann, d/o ditto, born 1833 Aug 22
1839 Oct 20, Louisa Jane, d/o Samuel & Rachel SUGDEN, 31 Rodney St, Florist, born 1839 Jun 13

Ages match with the children in 1841, and the two elder daughters with Samuel and new wife Emma in 1851. John in 1841 also is 15, not 65.

It is the same Samuel and Emma who had Albert Sydney in 1864.

Ian C

[Eyesee]

When Maria SUGDEN married William WATSON at St Mary Aldermanbury on 19 Jul 1841, she names her father as Samuel SUGDEN, Warehouseman.

There is a burial for an Elizabeth SUGDEN on 5 Nov 1843 at St James Clerkenwell. Abode St Mary Aldermanbury, and aged 55, which could be the Elizabeth in the baptisms.

Can't see her in the 1841 or Maria. Maria must have been there as she was married only a few weeks later.

Ian C

[pDim]

I am also interested in this line. By an chance would Samuels father be William Sugden married 1734?

[Valda]

Hi

Gentleman as a term used on certificates, does not necessarily describe middle class men only. For working class men it can often be used when they were older. Since there were no pensions for ordinary people (except for very few occupations such as the army, police and the post office) most working class people continued to work until they dropped or were to incapacitated to do so. They had to work because they had no other means of support. Working class men who had amassed enough money over the years to put it into some sort of fund that paid them enough to live on, could stop work in their last few years. Just like gentlemen they did not have to work, hence that is what they called themselves. Children sometimes had a tendency to elevate their fathers to this status on their marriage whether they truly were or not.


Is this the Samuel Sugden junior you are interested in who on his marriage gave his father as Samuel gentleman?

1861 census RG9 791 folio 76
Crouch End Hornsey
Saml Sugden 33  Head Married Warehouseman St Pancras Middlesex
Frances Sugden 22 Wife Married Exeter Devonshire
Saml E Sugden 8 Son Hornsey Middlesex
Frances Sugden 6 Daughter Hornsey Middlesex
Alfred H Sugden 4 Son Hornsey Middlesex
Walter G Sugden 2 Son Hornsey Middlesex
Fred W Sugden 4 Months Hornsey Middlesex
plus 2 servants

From the 1841 census (and the 1861 census for Samuel junior) for Samuel Sugden senior in Crouch End his children were (relationships not given on the 1841 census)

Elizabeth born circa 1822-1826 (confirmed as daughter on 1851 census)
Samuel born circa 1828 Pancras (confirmed on marriage certificate and 1861 census warehouseman living in Crouch End)
Emily born circa 1831 (confirmed as daughter on 1851 census)
Mary born circa 1843 (quite an age gap may not be a daughter)

In 1851 all their births are given as Hornsey but this may not be the case.



The florist Samuel Sugden is a different Samuel Sugden who may not have married the woman/women he was associated with after his wife died - though Mary Ann Sugden aged 27 is staying with a Margaret Rawlinson as her niece on the 1861 census.

1841 census HO107 664/14 folio 36
BrunswicK Grove Islington
Margaret Rawlinson 72 Artificial florist
Rachal Rawlinson 30 Artificial florist
Louisa Sugden 2
all born Middlesex

A Samuel Sugden was buried at St James Pentonville 27th November 1841 aged 72, of Rodney Street


1841 census HO107 662/3 folio 33
Rodney Street Clerkenwell
Samuel Sugden 70 Florist born Middlesex
Sarah Sugden 30 Florist not born Middlesex
living in the samehouse with the Watts family John and Ann and children



Regards

Valda

[Lisa B]

Hi Valda. No not the right Samuel Sugden. My Samuel was born 1798 Leeds Yorkshire then moved to Southgate Middlesex. Samuel had two marrages but my ancestor was Emma Elizabeth Linsell. As I understand the floral business was run by Samuel, Samuel and other family members. I think there were a few Samuel's. My Samuel later went in to the fur business etc... in Southgate. His place of residence was Oak Lodge Southgate. Lisa

[Valda]

Hi

Samuel Sugden the florist gives his birthplace as Middlesex on the 1841 census. This might be inaccurate but there is a baptism in Middlesex that would fit with him and the area of London he lived in in the C19th.

SAMUEL SUGDEN
Birth:  23 MAY 1770   
Christening:  24 JUN 1770   Saint Leonards, Shoreditch, London
Father:  SAMUEL SUGDEN 
Mother:  ELISABETH 

Why do you think your Samuel born in Leeds Yorkshire circa 1800 was the son of this Samuel and not another based in Leeds where the surname is more common?

SAMUEL SUGDEN
Christening:  20 MAY 1798   Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire
Father:  SAMUEL SUGDEN 

possible siblings

WILLIAM SUGDEN
Christening:  16 FEB 1794   Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire
Father:  SAMUEL SUGDEN 
 
JOHN SUGDEN
Christening:  01 MAY 1796   Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire
Father:  SAMUEL SUGDEN

SARAH SUGDEN
Christening:  22 NOV 1801   Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire
Father:  SAMUEL SUGDEN 

HANNAH MARIA SUGDEN
Christening:  09 JAN 1803   Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire
Father:  SAMUEL SUGDEN 

possible marriage

SAMUEL SUGDEN
SARAH HUTCHINSON   
Marriage:  26 MAR 1793   Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire



Regards

Valda

[Lisa B]

Hi again
Thank I have misunderstood you some were along the line. The list of names you have posted last is correct.  Lisa