Author Topic: Help: Court Martialled & Missing in UK, Capt: Albert Edward Harrison AIF  (Read 68312 times)

Offline Craven-Harrison

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Re: Help: Court Martialled & Missing in UK, Capt: Albert Edward Harrison AIF
« Reply #162 on: Saturday 17 July 10 07:00 BST (UK) »
G'day Barry,

this fellow Alfred Ernest Harrison is not our man 99.9 % and has risen to the surface in this discussion as his initials "AE" are a match, as are some of his other Military attributes. His British references are perfect and just too good to be a fabrication.

However, the voter’s rolls are certainly an aspect that I hadn't considered at this point. The problem with leaving the Military search process is that the links in the chain go missing. We could end up with a dozen AE Harrison's and all with identical attributes using the voters rolls, (or am I wrong) ?

I have a list of possible AEH's in the British Death Certificates, but because there is no place on the British certificates for place of birth, it's impossible to determine the right fellow. I built a logical matrix of age verses date of birth verses date of death and then created a short list of age at death possibles.  I'm guessing that if my AEH kept his name he is one of them, but without the Place of birth it's all just academic

I could be wrong about the death certificates and this could also apply equally to the voter's rolls? this begs the question, what is written on the Voters rolls entries?

Thanks

Ian
Harrison:  Elslack in Craven, Broughton in Craven, Carleton in Craven, Earby, Cowling, in UK
Harrison:  Richmond, Kew, Carlton, Brushgrove, Melbourne , in Oz
Capt A E Harrison. AIF,  Missing in UK

Offline Craven-Harrison

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Re: Help: Court Martialled & Missing in UK, Capt: Albert Edward Harrison AIF
« Reply #163 on: Saturday 17 July 10 07:15 BST (UK) »
JDS1949 and Redroger,

have you taken a look at the London Gazette entries on this thread in reply 7, 8 and 9

Were these indicative of those seen at the NA yesterday? - I have found the LG to be very particular of spelling, punctuation, case and sequence, subsequently I have squeezed out many more entries that I'm putting into a sequential date order list, could this new ordered list or the lists on 7, 8 and 9 be helpful? or just a distraction?

Another issue is that the indexing and search engine operate on OCR IT technology and it doesn't always get things right on the first pass, (or second sometimes)

Ian
Harrison:  Elslack in Craven, Broughton in Craven, Carleton in Craven, Earby, Cowling, in UK
Harrison:  Richmond, Kew, Carlton, Brushgrove, Melbourne , in Oz
Capt A E Harrison. AIF,  Missing in UK

Offline Siamese Girl

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Re: Help: Court Martialled & Missing in UK, Capt: Albert Edward Harrison AIF
« Reply #164 on: Saturday 17 July 10 08:30 BST (UK) »
Any news on the will?

Carole
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Offline jds1949

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Re: Help: Court Martialled & Missing in UK, Capt: Albert Edward Harrison AIF
« Reply #165 on: Saturday 17 July 10 11:43 BST (UK) »
Dear Ian,

I can confirm that the record I looked at for A E Harrison was indeed the one from which you posted the extract and which we all agree can not be your man.

I shall try to chase down the long number reference for the AEH on your handwritten list when I am next at Kew.

I am not an expert on the detailed procedures of the British Army, but I don't think that temporary commissions ceased on the day the war ended. My great uncle was an officer [temporary] in the Lancashire Fusiliers and he remained in the army until he was invalided out on health grounds early in 1920. He was still holding his temporary commission at that date.

At some point over the next couple of days I shall go back and look in detail at the London Gazette extracts that posted earlier and I shall let you know my thoughts when I've had a chance to do that.

On a more general point, all of these records that we have been looking at form a tiny fraction of the millions of pieces of paper that were generated during and immediately after the First World War. The British Army went from being a small [by European standards] organisation of a few hundred thousand to several millions almost overnight. The existing administration procedures were totally swamped and new ways of doing things had to be invented in a very short space of time. In the intervening 90+ years those same records have been "blitzed" weeded and moved on more that one occasion - it is hardly surprising that we are having problems finding exactly what we want. I strongly suspect that our failure to find our man is more to do with the chaos of history than to any conspiracy to deceive - at least as far as the authorities are concerned. If AEH served in the British Army under his own name after his court-martial, then there was a record of that service. If it has not survived - then we have a problem. If he, for whatever reason, served under any other name - then our chances of finding anything more are virtually non-existent. The document dated October 1919 and sent to his wife concerning AEH's temporary commission in the British Army would, to my mind, strongly suggest that he served under his own name.

I should add that I have had at least two and possibly three examples in my own researches of men who were said to be officers in one document and for whom no further proof seems to exist; that includes one who had a long number for which there was no file. These things happen.

jds1949
Swarbrick - all and any - specially interested in all who served in WW1


Offline Redroger

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Re: Help: Court Martialled & Missing in UK, Capt: Albert Edward Harrison AIF
« Reply #166 on: Saturday 17 July 10 19:11 BST (UK) »
Ian, Nothing further to add at present. On my next visit to Kew (don't know when) I am willing to undertake to find any documents you need by reference.
Roger
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Offline Craven-Harrison

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Re: Help: Court Martialled & Missing in UK, Capt: Albert Edward Harrison AIF
« Reply #167 on: Sunday 18 July 10 05:52 BST (UK) »
Dear all,

before I comment and answer all the latest events and emerging research outcomes. I thought that I might digress to a story of another AIF soldier who became a National interest upon his State Funeral in 2004. I thought this story might strike a cord, given that we are searching for a fellow of similar characteristics, The two women who eventually unravelled his past, did so without his records using deduction and some good luck



Who is the mysterious Harold Katte, AKA  Marcel Caux?

The mystery of Marcel Caux was so complex that the Australian Government had his body examined after he died to confirm his identity. Doubts were raised about the identity of the 105 year old soldier when Australian newspapers found there was no record of a soldier named Caux fighting for the AIF in WW1. The Australian Government was beginning to get worried that Mr Caux might not be who he said he was and given they were about to give him a State funeral in Sydney on Friday August 27th 2004,  it might not look good if he actually wasn’t who he said he was. Never the less the Australian DVA were emphatic that he had served in the AIF. Meanwhile his service records were secured and not to be opened, suggesting some sort of strange conspiracy, becoming national news in Australia!

His family knew nothing of his war service until 1989 when the French made contact offering him the Legion of Honour for his WW1 service, which he accepted. He had become Marcel Caux by the time he married Irma Davis in 1929, she believed him to be French. Their Marriage Certificate records him as being born in Brest France. She was Belgian born and was convinced he was French. Although there is no record of a divorce, he then married Doris Young in 1949, this time claiming he was born in Quebec, he is then known as Marcel Cause aged 44.

The first deception in Caux’s story came in 1915 when he enlisted at 16 saying, he was 18 with his father’s signature on his enlistment papers. His father, Percy Katte, effectively sending his 16 year old son to War in Egypt and then France, to grow up in a very big hurry.

He was wounded three times firstly in France at Pozieres 1916, then Villers Bretonneux in 1918 and then at Amiens where his knee was shattered and subsequently locked solid for life. His unit lost 6848 men, killed, wounded or missing in 12 days around Pozieres, the total Australian casualties in six weeks was 23,300.  Caux or Private Katte as he was then known was apparently AWL twice, firstly during 1917 at Le Harvre and again in 1918 in Brest apparently posing as a Frenchman.

After the war he returned to Australia with a rigid right leg and was subsequently refused an invalid pension, the physician insisted that if he could stand up he didn’t need one, Disillusioned with the Army he tore up his Army history and photographs and moved into the Australian bush where he became a Carpenter and an absolute opponent of War. He claimed for the next 80 years that his injuries were from WW2 and he was too young for service in WW1

He had not spoken of his WW1 history for 80 years, until 2001, he had never attended Remembrance day or Anzac day services. When he began to speak of his exploits his own narratives were riddled with inconsistencies and evasions. There were secrets in his service records that would threaten to undermine the hero-making machinery that ultimately ended in his State funeral. At different times he had laid claim to at least five different names, six birth places, three nationalities and five occupations.

The Katte/Caux story demonstrates what war can do to ordinary people. It also shows how one deception can lead to another and nearly a century later can embarrass the present. Caux was one of the last five Australian survivors of WW1. The French Government had honoured him as the last Australian survivor of the Battle of Pozieres


Just so there is no possible confusion here, this is definately not AE Harrison. This story is now the subject of a book "Marcel Caux A life Unrevelled" the Author and historian : Lynette Ramsey Sliver and Military Researcher Di Elliott and there is much about Marcel Caux, the book and the State Funeral on the NET.

You might well ask, how did Lyn and Di establish that Marcel and Harold were one and the same soldier without his service records? (his name change was in his records) but they were secured.

After some serious research they determined that Harold Katte was not repriated back to Australia on his designated troop ship the HMAT Runic. However, there was a soldier who was repriated to Australia aboard the HMAT Runic, with no record of him leaving Australia or for that matter fighting for Australia, his name was Marcel Caux, sounds pretty simple in this context...... !
Harrison:  Elslack in Craven, Broughton in Craven, Carleton in Craven, Earby, Cowling, in UK
Harrison:  Richmond, Kew, Carlton, Brushgrove, Melbourne , in Oz
Capt A E Harrison. AIF,  Missing in UK

Offline Craven-Harrison

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Re: Help: Court Martialled & Missing in UK, Capt: Albert Edward Harrison AIF
« Reply #168 on: Sunday 18 July 10 06:47 BST (UK) »
Hi Carole,

No answer from Albert's grandson Brian at this stage, I don't want to push too hard at this stage as he's pretty busy with his Salvation Army responsibilities.

If I haven't heard from him by next week I'll harass him a bit and possibly take the reins

Ian
Harrison:  Elslack in Craven, Broughton in Craven, Carleton in Craven, Earby, Cowling, in UK
Harrison:  Richmond, Kew, Carlton, Brushgrove, Melbourne , in Oz
Capt A E Harrison. AIF,  Missing in UK

Offline Craven-Harrison

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Re: Help: Court Martialled & Missing in UK, Capt: Albert Edward Harrison AIF
« Reply #169 on: Sunday 18 July 10 07:13 BST (UK) »
Dear JDS1949,

Ok, regarding the confirmation on the Alfred Ernest file

The man on the long number reference isn’t my Albert Edward Harrison given the year of birth identified in the RH column is 1888. His long number goes nowhere unless you can find it. The list is part of a huge on-line resource from the NA and is the WO338 index. The page extract that I mounted here is one of a huge bundle of Harrison’s Harris’s, Harrisson’s, Harrinson’s etc that I downloaded last week about 250meg of them. A very valuable resource for anybody researching UK Military Officers in the UK

Ok, on your info regarding temporary Commissions and the cessation of those commissions after the war etc

Your comments regarding the records are also understood and I agree totally with you about all your comments and sentiments. We are so lucky to be an organized and thorough race and culture, we wouldn’t be doing this nor would we have this interest, or this website without our organized archives or enquiring minds.

As for the possibility to locate AEH’s records or fate if he changed his name, I agree that it does appear to be an impossible task, but I will continue to investigate all the logical possibilities and maybe some illogical ones until they are all exhausted and then access what is left. The economies of scale, how much life left and how many records and clues left……… LOL

Yep, I agree, these things do happen, all the leads might have dried up and I guess that we could be doing something else with our time, but actually, I like brick walls they make you think a bit

Cheers

Ian
Harrison:  Elslack in Craven, Broughton in Craven, Carleton in Craven, Earby, Cowling, in UK
Harrison:  Richmond, Kew, Carlton, Brushgrove, Melbourne , in Oz
Capt A E Harrison. AIF,  Missing in UK

Offline Craven-Harrison

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Re: Help: Court Martialled & Missing in UK, Capt: Albert Edward Harrison AIF
« Reply #170 on: Sunday 18 July 10 07:40 BST (UK) »
Dear Roger,

thanks for the offer or further research, once I have my lists organised and sensible there could be a couple of chaps that are worth investigating, naturally this is in tandem to the more formal MOD enquiries that I intend to initiate in the next couple of weeks.

I want to complete all the LG entries, matrix’s and lists prior to any communication with the MOD.

In context with what JDS has said regarding AEH retaining his original name, I tend to agree with him, but I do believe that AEH might have become a simple "A" or Albert which would be enough to make him meld into the many other A's

I believe that Albert would have all the hallmarks of a narcissist who was given an arm chair ride by all his older siblings, originally 17 and eventually 9, this is the bloke who got married on his birthday and had many other important events attached to his birth date. I believe that he was proud of his family name, education personal and military history and like many successful men with rank in the military driven by ego. Therefore, I agree that he will retain his name and somehow evade his family by simple means not any created by the military

He was the youngest, smart and got the best education, his mum died when he was 16 prematurely after having and bringing up 16 children some of whom died in infancy and youth. Albert was then looked after by his big brothers and sisters and each of the three youngest children including my grandfather Arthur, were quite self indulgent if not narcissistic.

Albert’s dad had two wives which account for an additional two children in the mix, his first wife died giving birth to the second child.

Cheers

Ian
Harrison:  Elslack in Craven, Broughton in Craven, Carleton in Craven, Earby, Cowling, in UK
Harrison:  Richmond, Kew, Carlton, Brushgrove, Melbourne , in Oz
Capt A E Harrison. AIF,  Missing in UK