Michael SMITH Brushy Creek

[norag]

Quote Cando:you now seem convinced that Patrick Daniel SMITH is the son of Michael and Mary. yes same parents date on census

 7 names on Mary Smith nee McNamara non death cert. 1 deceased
John aged 39
Michael aged 38  (We know he died)
James aged 36   ( my grandfather)
Thomas deceased
Edward      indecipherable  note he died in the 1950's in Melbourne Did not marry that I know of
Joseph Thomas  no age    He is incorrectly listed on the Census as Edward Thomas
Patrick Daniel    no age
 This all matches the info and rego numbers you gave to me  so they are all her children
Strange they did not know the ages of the last three to put on death cert

The real puzzles are John  and Patrick Daniel.



Quote Candi Can you post the portion of the certificate that contains the words you can't read following Edward's  indecipherable note: Technically I can't do that Will get someone to help over the weekend . 

Quote Cando: the Diggers Indexes in their resources you could trawl the SMITH deaths for your people by attempting to match the ages with the years of birth of the three men....but perhaps they died interstate.
 Tess I will do that when I get over to Victoria.  I am going to assume they were all in Victoria .

Norag

[cando]

Norag I am puzzled by your referral to the census.  Do you mean the births, deaths and marriages in Victoria perhaps.  So there were seven births after all.

Only trying to help you decipher the words on the certificate, I would guess it refers to whether or not Edward is living or deceased.

The Diggers Indexes are at many libraries not only in Victoria.

SMITH Edward
Father Michael  Mother Mary Ann McNAMARA
At Kew  89 years  1957  Reg#7930

His death certificate would give you details of his marriage and children, ie if he married.

Cheers
Cando

[norag]

Census info I think you sent me or maybe LoganL. did  from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Thank you re Edward. Now it is only John Smith        the puzzling Patrick Daniel

I seem to remember that John was referred to as Uncle Jack, but never heard mention of patrick. maybe he was the black sheep

can i send the birth cert personally to you in an email. i can handle that technology but can't seem to get photos etc onto the Rootschat site. i did read all the assistance but i seem to have a mental block there. i did try. norag

[norag]

The writing  goes over the edge of the column and says something like :Unknown years  24 about

Edward would  in fact would have been 34 ish but how come his brothers know nothing about that. Of course i do not know who was filling the certificate but strange that the three older sons' ages were known and not the younger three.

My brother has just told me that he thinks my father had a cousin ( or maybe uncle)in Dorrigo Vic.

That is something I have not explored at all yet. If it is a cousin it could only be a child of John or Patrick
We are fairly certain Edward did not marry. He ended living in an old hut on a farmer's property in Gippsland.When he became too old he was brought to Kew , He ran away and died soon after. Poor old fella.  Norag

[cando]

Hi Norag

I thought Dorrigo was in NSW...pretty spot.  Perhaps there is also one in  Victoria

Norag where did Mary die as it is noted as Melbourne West on the index? 

What was her cause of death.  If Mary was very ill she may not have been able to give any information to her 'carer' about her own parents or children.

Who was the informant?   

The information on death certificates may offer clues to family relationships.  Perhaps they had all gone their own way and possibly not kept in touch.   You did mention Edward lived in an old hut and was later admitted to ?Kew Asylum.

I am also a bit puzzled....requests for information about this family are answered by yourself within a couple of hours, with the word 'we think'.  Perhaps it may be better to allow the person helping you to perhaps give you all the information they have and then if they can't help further, ask us for help.  Sorry to sound a tad disgruntled but it is very easy to spend quite a bit of time searching for this SMITH family....and we like to be helpful

Cheers
Cando

[norag]

Opps Dorrigo is in NSW

Mary died in Melbourne West. There was a postmortem.  It showed fatty degeneration of the Heart and Bright's disease of the liver.the fact that there was a postmortem maybe indicates that she was alone. I have no idea of  her living situation.

 Informant on death cert?  John O Rorke, an authorised agent of 50 Pitt st Carlton..so not family or carer

Edward lived in hut later in life.I Very probable he never married . There was a section of Kew that admitted "old people" with nowhere to go.He was not insane. I remember vaguely from childhood, my father trying to look after him and effect the best solution . Maybe it was not kew but some other old people's home as they were called in those days, ie the 50's

  Sorry about adding new information within hours. I guess I have been so excited about
finding out all this information and it has triggered some memories for me. Also have tried to involve my two brothers. The snippet about Dorrigo was from one of them

I am extremely grateful for the assistance I have received and realise that my inexperience at using this tool has caused some frustration for you. I will try to understand the system better and work within guidelines and assemble all the facts before reply.

I guess the more information within hours was to say.. hey and here is another clue.

To summarise the inquiry on the Michael smith family.  There is  only John Smith#2946 and Patrick Daniel Smith#24215 to be accounted for. And maybe one of them went to Dorrigo, NSW
  Norag

[cando]

Thank for that Norag.  At times I think people appear to have access to family trees and are really only asking us to validate information.  It is wonderful that your brothers are interested and willing to help you.

It isn't unusual to have the funeral director as the informant.....and someone gave information about Mary's family to that person.  Post mortems are performed  if there is no known medical history and the cause of death and manner of death is unknown or suspicious. 

Death in NSW - right area
1004/1945     
SMITH  Patrick Daniel
Father Michael
District Bellingen


Kew Asylum admitted geriatrics with acute and long term needs including dementia/senility.  It wasn't a place that simply housed aged people that had nowhere else to go.

He ran away and died soon after

 
You would need to see his death certificate to validate his actual place of death.

Possibly Edward's burial record
http://www.deceasedsearch.com/index.php
Springvale Botanical Cemetery     
SMITHEdward   
Date of Service 9 Jul 1957    
Burial - Roman Catholic - Monumental Compartment D Section 13 Grave 44    
Public Grave No
This memorial is held in perpetuity - for all time

   

Cheers
Cando 

[norag]

This the photo that triggered off the enquiry. I had no idea of the names of any of them, the widow or her children , but knew One of the children was my grandfather.  I am so grateful and amazed at all you have been able to discover  maybe I can get your team to restore it.  Norag

[cando]

You are so fortunate to have this photo

It looks like James, Edward, Mary nursing Patrick Daniel, John, Michael and Joseph Thomas seated.    I think the name orphans has been incorrectly used.  Orphans are children who have lost both parents.

Cando