Thomas Musgrave. Death help please. Pennsylvania.

[coombs]

Hi

Not much more to report on Thomas Musgrave's death. It is now a case of waiting for more obituaries and such to be posted for the area. I am sure there is some record somewhere.

I wonder if any kind soul could perhaps send me a copy of Margaret Miller in the 1920 and 1930 census please? In 1920 she is with husband William H Miller in Allegheny, PA and in 1930 in Scott, Allegheny PA. Born England. If anyone is able to then if they send me a PM I can then reply with my email address.

Ben

[beansgram]

Hi Chatters Just because Thomas could not be found on the 1906 death registry at the dept of health does not mean he didn't die in 1906. My gr grandfather died in a local hospital in 1934. I have all of the records even his obit and news articles about him being hit by the car, where he is buried and a photo of the tombstone, but when I sent to the state for his death cert so I could verify his parents,  the state sent me a letter back saying they had no record of his death. According to the state of Pennsylvania he is 166 years old.  All record keeping is subject to omissions not deliberate but it does happen.

[johnnyboy]

Hi Ben: I wanted to let you know that I have hunted down and contacted a church in McDonald, Pennsylvania whose pastor (I think it was Rev. W. D. Irons) seems to have officiated at the funeral of Thomas Musgrave's daughter Elizabeth Sutherland in 1911. The person I spoke with is going to search the church records to see if there is any death or burial information for Thomas Musgrave, as well as for other family members.

But this is something of a long shot. I re-read Elizabeth Sutherland's obituary and noticed that there was not a church funeral. Instead, the obit says, "The funeral services were held at the SAIX [Elizabeth's daughter] home in charge of the Rev. W. D. IRONS."

Rev. Irons might only have been asked to officiate at the funeral and no record for the church might have been kept. Perhaps he or another minister did the same with Thomas Musgrave's funeral, with no record surviving from his funeral.

And to beansgram: Thanks for the post. Good to bear that possibility in mind.

John 

[coombs]

Thomas originally emigrated in 1886 but then returned to England for a short while and it looks like he returned to America in April 1892 aboard the Lord Clive. The passenger list index lists a Thomas Musgrave farmer, and a Thomas Musgrave, miner, on the same voyage but I think they could be from different indexes for the same voyage.

The info I found for my Thomas is "Thomas Musgrave, miner, aged 64, widower, came to join 2 daughters in Penna", landed April 19th 1892 on the Lord Clive. So that is my ancestor as it ties in with the info I have on him. He returned to America in 1892 for good this time.

I checked the index and there was only 1 Thomas Musgrave on that voyage, slightly younger, aged 61 and said he was a farmer. I think this is probably my Thomas Musgrave though, he gave slightly different info or it was misheard. The back of the passenger list does mention an additional index elsewhere.

Ben.

[coombs]

Hi Ben: I wanted to let you know that I have hunted down and contacted a church in McDonald, Pennsylvania whose pastor (I think it was Rev. W. D. Irons) seems to have officiated at the funeral of Thomas Musgrave's daughter Elizabeth Sutherland in 1911. The person I spoke with is going to search the church records to see if there is any death or burial information for Thomas Musgrave, as well as for other family members.

But this is something of a long shot. I re-read Elizabeth Sutherland's obituary and noticed that there was not a church funeral. Instead, the obit says, "The funeral services were held at the SAIX [Elizabeth's daughter] home in charge of the Rev. W. D. IRONS."

Rev. Irons might only have been asked to officiate at the funeral and no record for the church might have been kept. Perhaps he or another minister did the same with Thomas Musgrave's funeral, with no record surviving from his funeral.

And to beansgram: Thanks for the post. Good to bear that possibility in mind.

John 

Hi Johnnyboy.

I shall keep that in mind. Thanks anyway.

I shall not give up hope though, maybe there is an obit lying somewhere or even a directory, which could be looked at to see when he last appears on it. This will be diff to electoral rolls as I dont think he ever voted as he was never a citizen, not to my knowledge anyway.

Ben

[johnnyboy]

Hi again Ben: Just occurred to me that one way to help confirm that Thomas Musgrave returned to England would be to search the passenger lists for people returning to the U.K. Those lists begin in 1890, and Thomas might be in them. The index card for his return to the U.S. in 1892 refers to someone being "here" [in the U.S.] for four years. That probably is referring to Thomas, since the daughters, who arrived in the U.S. with Thomas in 1886, would have been resident for six years.

Doing the math: If Thomas arrived in the U.S. in 1886, as you say, and he returned from a visit home in 1892 and stated on his return to the U.S. that he had previously been in the U.S. for four years, then subtracting four years from the total of six elapsed years, that means he might have left the U.S. for England in 1890 or even 1891 and might be on a passenger list. It's worth a look.

Regards,
John 

[coombs]

Hi again Ben: Just occurred to me that one way to help confirm that Thomas Musgrave returned to England would be to search the passenger lists for people returning to the U.K. Those lists begin in 1890, and Thomas might be in them. The index card for his return to the U.S. in 1892 refers to someone being "here" [in the U.S.] for four years. That probably is referring to Thomas, since the daughters, who arrived in the U.S. with Thomas in 1886, would have been resident for six years.

Doing the math: If Thomas arrived in the U.S. in 1886, as you say, and he returned from a visit home in 1892 and stated on his return to the U.S. that he had previously been in the U.S. for four years, then subtracting four years from the total of six elapsed years, that means he might have left the U.S. for England in 1890 or even 1891 and might be on a passenger list. It's worth a look.

Regards,
John 

Hi Johnny

We have confirmed he did return to England by his 1892 card for his trip back again to the US as I am sure he gave extra info on another register on the Lord Clive which ended up on that index card, but it would be good to find when he did go back to England. Also I never thought that "here, 4 years" on the card may be Thomas, I just assumed it was his daughters. Just to add, he only went with his youngest daughter in 1886. The eldest emigrated in 1881 aged 29, 5 years before Thomas went to America with Margaret, his youngest.

I have just looked again at the card and it says "To 2 daughters. Here 4 years" The H in here is in a capital letter which indicates it is something separate from the "To 2 daughters" bit so it probably was Thomas, here 4 years. I dont know what the PPD abbreviation after it is.

Ben

[johnnyboy]

Hi Johnny

We have confirmed he did return to England by his 1892 card for his trip back again to the US as I am sure he gave extra info on another register on the Lord Clive which ended up on that index card, but it would be good to find when he did go back to England. Also I never thought that "here, 4 years" on the card may be Thomas, I just assumed it was his daughters. Just to add, he only went with his youngest daughter in 1886. The eldest emigrated in 1881 aged 29, 5 years before Thomas went to America with Margaret, his youngest.

I have just looked again at the card and it says "To 2 daughters. Here 4 years" The H in here is in a capital letter which indicates it is something separate from the "To 2 daughters" bit so it probably was Thomas, here 4 years. I dont know what the PPD abbreviation after it is.

Ben

Hi Ben: I suggested finding his return to England in the passenger lists in case there is information about him that you don't have. The U.K, though, didn't seem to require the information that the individual U.S. states and then the U.S. government wanted from entering passengers.

P.P.D. could be almost anything. It might have been something to do with either the state of Pennsylvania or the city of Philadelphia.

John 

[coombs]

Hi Johnny

We have confirmed he did return to England by his 1892 card for his trip back again to the US as I am sure he gave extra info on another register on the Lord Clive which ended up on that index card, but it would be good to find when he did go back to England. Also I never thought that "here, 4 years" on the card may be Thomas, I just assumed it was his daughters. Just to add, he only went with his youngest daughter in 1886. The eldest emigrated in 1881 aged 29, 5 years before Thomas went to America with Margaret, his youngest.

I have just looked again at the card and it says "To 2 daughters. Here 4 years" The H in here is in a capital letter which indicates it is something separate from the "To 2 daughters" bit so it probably was Thomas, here 4 years. I dont know what the PPD abbreviation after it is.

Ben

Hi Ben: I suggested finding his return to England in the passenger lists in case there is information about him that you don't have. The U.K, though, didn't seem to require the information that the individual U.S. states and then the U.S. government wanted from entering passengers.

P.P.D. could be almost anything. It might have been something to do with either the state of Pennsylvania or the city of Philadelphia.

John 

Hi John.

I shall certainly look to see any arrivals in England from 1890 or 1891. When he returned it does seem he said "4 years" as in 4 years before so if he emigrated in September1886 it was about 1890 that he took a trip back to England. He must have stayed for a year or so before returning to the US in 1892.

Ben