Thomas Musgrave. Death help please. Pennsylvania.

[coombs]

Hi Johnnyboy

Many thanks for looking anyway. We know what precinct it was but I assume it was down a dirt track and possibly like one of the houses you described.

What can you tell me about that seemingly partial death index from 1906 present as I dont think it is a complete one.

Ben

[johnnyboy]

Hi Ben: I come with good news and bad news. Maybe you should have the good news with a Scotch on the rocks or whatever you drink and then follow it up with a double Scotch or two of whatever you drink for the bad news.

Here's the good news. The State of Pennsylvania has just this week put its death indexes for the years 1906-1961 online. And they're free to search.

Here's the bad news. My first search was for an entry for Thomas Musgrave in the years 1906 through 1913. I couldn't find him, Ben.

I looked under Musgrave, Musgrove, Musgreave, Mussgrave, Mossgrave, etc., etc., etc., etc.

I did find Elizabeth Sutherland in the 1911 index, but she was listed under "Southerland." That's why I searched as many variations of Musgrave as I could think up.
 
I'm really sorry, Ben. I was hoping to finally pin the old gent down. My feeling now is that he must have passed away between 1900 and 1906 and that he didn't make it into anyone's records. Not Allegheny County, where he and his daughter's family were enumerated in the 1900 U.S. census. Not Washington County, whose pre-1906 death records I searched at the county courthouse. Not anywhere in Pennsylvania.

I posted information about the Pennsylvania death records (with links to the records) in a thread on the U.S. Resources and Offers board. I think you should have a search yourself. My post is at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,582973.0.html

I still think we'll eventually find when Thomas died.

Regards,
John 

[coombs]

Hi Johnnyboy

Thanks anyway.

Could he have still died in Allegheny or Washington? Are those 1900-1905 records complete at all or could some deaths have gone unrecorded in the Allegheny or Washington pre 1906 deaths?

When you say not anywhere in PA do you mean he died outside the state or will we have to find another way of finding a death record, ie an obituary, will or any electoral rolls and see when he stopped appearing?

Ben

[johnnyboy]

Hi Ben: Thomas could have died in either Washington County or Allegheny County before 1906 without his death being reported to any authority. I'm not sure that there was even a requirement before 1906 that deaths be recorded by any authority, that is the county. I don't believe that towns and cities were ever obligated to keep records, though the city of Pittsburgh did before 1906.

When I wrote "not anywhere in Pennsylvania," I simply meant that the records starting from 1906 cover the entire state. The death indexes now online list the place where a death occurred. I found no record of anyone named Thomas Musgrave dying anywhere in the State of Pennsylvania in the years I searched.

The possibility that he might have died outside of Pennsylvania is very remote. But you can never say never.

A quirk of geography puts McDonald and North Fayette Township less than 25 miles directly east of Pennsylvania's border with the states of Ohio and West Virginia. A narrow panhandle of West Virginia sticks up northward and comes between Pennsylvania and Ohio. That panhandle is only five or so miles wide, and then you cross the Ohio River into Ohio.

In 1900-1910, twenty five miles was a lot more difficult to travel than it is today.

Unless Thomas had become naturalized as a U.S. citizen, I doubt if he would have been on any electoral rolls. And unless he owned property, a will was  not likely. His affairs would have been settled privately by the family. But I'll keep both of those in mind for the next time I visit Pennsylvania. It's easy enough to check with the appropriate offices at the Washington County and Allegheny County courthouses.

In the meantime, you might want to search the death indexes on your own for Thomas. Maybe there was an alternate spelling that I overlooked. The more eyes, the better.

John 

[johnnyboy]

Hi Ben: Just had an idea. When you began this thread, you posted information from the Robinson Run Cemetery about Elizabeth Sutherland. The cemetery records were on the USGenWeb project's webpage for Allegheny County, Pennsylvania.

On the same website there are obituaries posted, transcribed from the McDonald newspaper. I believe Elizabeth Sutherland's obituary was among those  transcribed. You should go to the site and find the e-mail address for the lady who is doing those transcriptions and contact her. Maybe she can do a search for Thomas Musgrave in the newspaper microfilms. Or she might have some ideas about further searching for his death.

Regards,
John 

[coombs]

Hi Johnnyboy

I am sure we will find a record somewhere of his death. I go with out thesis that he died inbetween June 1900 and December 1905. It does look like he was buried in Robinson Run Cemetery.

His brothers died inbetween the ages of 70-76. So I would assume Thomas died aged about 75 then. So he may have died 1902-1904ish.

Obituaries are our next source. Or if anyone else has family bibles of the Musgraves which list his death. I wonder if his death in PA was mentioned in any English newspapers at his home county?

Could he have appeared in directories if not electoral rolls?

Also you say that some 1900-1905 deaths in Allegheny and Washington were not reported?

Ben

[coombs]

Hi Johnnyboy

Pennsylvania have just released a lot of probate records but they are indexed in a funny way such as estate record, proceedings and that. This may hold they key to nailing Thomas Musgrave's death, or any info on the wills for the Saix, Wilson and such may lead to a clue about Thomas Musgrave.

Ben

[johnnyboy]

Hi Johnnyboy

Pennsylvania have just released a lot of probate records but they are indexed in a funny way such as estate record, proceedings and that. This may hold they key to nailing Thomas Musgrave's death, or any info on the wills for the Saix, Wilson and such may lead to a clue about Thomas Musgrave.

Ben

Hi Ben: Very often, when a person had no property to speak of, there would be no reason to file a will. Given Thomas' age and the fact that his son-in-law worked at a coal mine, I'm not sure there would be any property to deal with.

That said, I had a quick look at the "Pennsylvania, Probate Records, 1683-1994" on FamilySearch.org They are ordered first by county. Since McDonald was partly in Washington County and partly in Allegheny County, you would want to search the records for both of those places.

If you're going to search the records, I suggest that you start with Allegheny County, since Thomas Musgrave was enumerated in Allegheny County in the 1900 census and seems to have died before 1910.

To search the records, click first on the "Browse Images" link to the right of the title "Pennsylvania, Probate Records, 1683-1994." You will then get a list of counties in Pennsylvania. Click on "Allegheny."

Pennsylvania used/uses a bizarre index that is based on the letters in the first name. So in the estate indexes for Allegheny, scroll down and click on "Estate index 1788-1971 surname M, first names S-Z" First name Thomas would be in the section starting at Image #82.

Unfortunately, that's as far as I have time to decipher today. You also want to search the Orphan's Court records for Allegheny County, since wills and such were dealt with there, too.

John 

[coombs]

Hi

It still feels a privilege to have a direct ancestor on the 1900 US census living in a pretty rural area in Pennsylvania.

I cannot seem to find a will of any of them and as they were just coal miners they probably rented property rather than owned it.

As said it is strongly possible Thomas died inbetween June 1900 and December 1905.

I want to access the 1940 census for Pennsylvania by name index so I can find Margaret Miller formerly Prosser and Musgrave and the Saix family and Thomas W Wilson.

Ben