lilian semmons

[DHLB]

lily/Lilian/Lillian/Liliana Maud Semmons. Born 1877, I believe. But where and to who? If anyone knows, I'd be very grateful. She's probably the Lily Semmons in the 1891 census as a servant
Dianne

[Ruskie]

Whereabouts was she born?

This seems to be the closest to 1877 with the middle name Maud:
Births Dec 1881
Edmonton
Lillie Maud Semmens
3a 257

There are several other Lil* Sem*ns.

Have a look here:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

You will need to order  the certificate to find out her parent's names.

[Valda]

Hi

Tottenham registers in Edmonton registration district so that Lily Maud Semmens would be this woman.

All Hallows, Tottenham 25th December 1900
Charles Samuel Catherall 23 Bachelor  Labourer 112 Somerset? Road James Catherall Factory Operative?
Lilly Maud Semmens 19 Spinster 10? ? Place, Scotland? ? James Semmens Labourer
Both signed
Witnesses James Semmens, Rosina Catherall

1891 census RG12 1070 folio 51
4 Hope Place Tottenham
James Semmens 39 Head Married Brewer's Labourer Moulton Norfolk
Susan Semmens 37 Wife Married Pulham Norfolk
Lilla Semmens 9 Daughter Tottenham
William Semmens 6 Son Tottenham
Fredric Semmens 2 Son Tottenham


As there are several Lily Semmons it helps to start from the known i.e. who she married if she married so we can go from a known and proven event - otherwise we are speculating e.g.

1891 census RG12 473 folio 87
307 Southampton Street Camberwell, London
Lilly Lemmons or Semmons  14 General Servant  St Margarets, Surrey

indexed as Semmons but could equally be Lemmons.


Regards

Valda

[DHLB]

Thanks very much! The one marrying CS Catherall is my girl! Looks as if I was given the wrong dob if she was 19 in 1900. It would help if the family had made a decision whether it was Semmons or Semmens, but what fun would it be if it was all straightfoward?
Dianne

[Cath girl]

The family DO know the correct spelling of the name of their grandmother, thank you Diane.

It is Lilian Semmons (note one L in lilian). Her birth date was correct at 1881 as she was 19 when she married Charles Samuel Catherall in 1900, (the marriage ref is 3a,680)

However, in searching for our ancestors we often find the surnames are miss spelt by the clerks filling out the forms as they were often relayed verbally by the participants.

The original derivation for the name Catherall is in fact Catterall and is a place name in Cheshire from which the family may have originated and came to England during the Norman Invasions as the name is Scandinavian in origin. Katta raile, meaning cats tail.

[Valda]

Hi

Welcome to Rootschat


The signature of the marriage entry of the Tottenham parish church register in 1900 is very clearly written as

Lilly Maud Semmens

The witness James also signs Semmens.


Her birth registration is of course a clerk writing the name but it appears from the evidence of their marriage both her parents were literate so would be able to spell out their surname.


Birth registration

Births Dec 1881   
SEMMENS  Lillie Maud     Edmonton  3a 257

and death registration (which of course she wouldn't have registered)

Lilian M Catherall aged 67
1949
Ilford
Volume 5a
Page 519


Her parents marriage taken from the actual parish register

All Hallows, Tottenham 25th April 1880
William James Semmens  28 Bachelor Labourer Tottenham James Semmens Labourer
Susan Vincent  26 Spinster Tottenham John Vincent Labourer
Both signed (William James clearly as Semmens)
Witnesses Mark Semmens and Ann Semmens (clearly signed Semmens)


The 1901 census was copied by the census enumerator from the household schedule written by someone in the household

1901 census RG13 1248 folio 24
19 Hope Place Tottenham
James Semmens 47 Head Married Labourer at Gas Works Pulham Market Norfolk
Susan Semmens 45 Wife Married Pulham Market Norfolk
William Semmens 16 Son Hairdressers assistant Tottenham Middlesex
Frederick Semmens 12 Son Tottenham Middlesex
Kate Semmens 9 Daughter Tottenham Middlesex
Bertie Semmens 3 Son Tottenham Middlesex


The 1911 census only has the household schedule, so that will be the family's writing of their surname. The census index gives William James Semmens. You will have to look at the actual written household schedule to see whether the surname is indexed correctly.

http://www.1911census.co.uk/


The 1911 census index gives Lilian Maud Catherall living in the Romford area.



PH Reaney A Dictionary of British Surnames gives the derivation of Catterall as this

Robert de Caterell 1222 (Coroners Rolls Hampshire); John de Caterhale 1332 (Subsidy Rolls Lancashire); Lawrence Cattrall 1462 (The Calverley Chaters Yorkshire); Richard Caterall 1500 (Register of the Freemen of York). From Catterall (Lancs) and, apparently , also from a place in Hants with a second element - hill. William Katerel 1203 (Assize Rolls Staffordshire) suggests also a pet form of Caterin.



Ordinary people (nearly all the original Saxon population - except the Norman nobility and the wealthier classes which some of us do descend from) adopted fixed surnames by about 1400. One of the ways they chose a surname was from the place they lived at that time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/familyhistory/get_started/surnames_01.shtml



Regards

Valda

[DHLB]

Thanks. In self defence I might mention that the earliest record I have of a Semmens it's spelled Symonds.  As a family member, I wasn't casting doubts on anyone's intelligence or social status, merely making a light-hearted comment that records and family stories aren't always 100% accurate
dianne

[Ruskie]

Excellent summary Valda.  Sometimes people do intentionally alter their names, change spellings etc during their own lifetime for any number of reasons ....

[Cath girl]

Valda, thank you for your very comprehensive reply, some interesting information there.It is so very easy to go off in the wrong direction isn't it?

family members of course can use 'inside knowledge' and memories of conversations with our loved ones that help us on to the right path and of course possess the original certificates.

This is a great site.