Durness Parish Register

[Donald NZ]

Reply #121
Are you still looking for Donald Mackay of Clasneach, Clashneach, or Claiseneach?

Hello Ian
Thank you for your comments, I will try and cover them in order, as separate subjects to keep them tidy,
Sorry that I have not been able to respond earlier. I had upgraded and changed several programs around in my main computer, then had to sort out which ones were fighting one another as there were major ensuing problems; so any spare time has had to go into getting the computers working properly again. Now for a catch-up.

1) Re; Rob Donn. As your 7 x g grandfather, have you identified whether Rob Donn was Mackay, Calder, Morrison ??

2) Your comment; I think Barbara was actually a sister of Kenneth Sutherland, the manager of Lord Reay's Durness barony.

2) Re; Barbara Sutherland, m Donald Mackay of Clashneach; who was her father?? John or Kenneth??

“A History of the House & Clan of Mackay”1829,  page 572, has “Isobella …. She married a gentleman of the name of Sutherland, (Kenneth of Keoldale ?)  that the question mark is actually written indicates “Robert Mackay” the writer to be unsure of the individual.
 (Isobella referring to John of Clashneach daughter).

In “The Book of Mackay” by Angus Mackay, published 1906, page 315, he states “Isobel married John, son of Kenneth Sutherland of Keoldale”.
Page 330v, states; Margaret married John Sutherland of Keoldale, issue two:- Kenneth, m his cousin Catherine, dau of Robert Mackay, tutor of Farr, and had a son John who m Isobel, dau. of John Mackay of Clashneach” and
“Barbara Sutherland m Donald Mackay, Clashneach”

“World of Rob Donn”.published 1999, Ian Grimble quotes Barbara as a daughter of Kenneth, and seems quite emphatic about it as it is fully written out in the index, page 302,
Grimble has; John (Iain Mac Choinnich) son of Kenneth as m Isobel (page 97-98 & 302)
Page 67; Kenneth,… son of the tutors sister Margaret and also married to the Tutors daughter Catherine.

"The Chiefs of Clan Mackay and Their Cadets."  by John Barth page 83
28.3.Isobel Mackay, m.(her cousin) John Sutherland, son of Kenneth Sutherland, in Keoldale, parish of Durness, co Sutherland, by his wife, Catherine Mackay, dau of Robert Mackay, tutor of Farr.

The latter two writers have the advantage of being able to resource the earlier research books as well as a wider range of documentation. Regardless I would like some confirmed dates on these three generations as a method to confirm or otherwise whether Barbara was son of Kennethor brother to Kenneth.

Isobel died 9th. May 1748 at Keoldale, Sutherland, Scotland. Age abt 23yrs = botn abt. 1725.
John died 1 o'clock 18th. May 1748, at Keoldale and buried at Balnakil, Sutherland, Scotland

John Sutherland was born abt.1680 and Margaret Mackay abt. 1685, these two about dates I recorded but did not at the time keep a record of how this was calculated, so the dates must be regarded as purely speculative. Hopefully someone can add further information.

Ian, Re; “Donald Mackay of Clasneach, Clashneach, or Claiseneach” I will respond and give it a separate  heading

Donald NZ

[Donald NZ]

Re: Donald Mackay of Clashneach
« Reply #121 on: Saturday 11 March 06 17:27 GMT (UK) - Ian
Are you still looking for Donald Mackay of Clasneach, Clashneach, or Claiseneach?

Hello Ian
You have sure read all of Andys posts and I note your reference is to;
Page 5, « Reply #66 on: Thursday 22 December 05 05:42 GMT (UK)
Relating to John of Borley. I have an approximate 1749 marriage to wife Marian Mackay, born abt. 1729, daughter of Donald Mackay of  Clashneach and Barbara Sutherland.
This Donald Mackay of Clashneach has been a problem for me over a very long time, although he has been mentioned in several historical books his history and in particular his second marriage to Mary, daughter of John of Musal or Clashneach and Catherine Mackay of Melness, is most vague. --------

Donald first married Barbara Sutherland, they had five children, Cpt. George b.abt 1727: Margaret b. abt. 1726, d.29/9/1805: Catherine: Margaret b. abt 1725: Marian b. abt 1729.

Ian as you appear to have Ian Grimbles, “The World of Rob Donn”. See page 212, there is reference that to me indicates the period when Donald and Barbara were splitting up. There is also reference to Rev. Murdo Macdonald using the term Uncle Kenneth, in reference to Barbara’s brother, when speaking of Barbara’s son Cpt. George. (this particular page I consider, makes Grimble’s deduction of Barbara being daughter of Kenneth to be wrong).
Donald went on to marry Mary daughter of Iain macEachainn of Muiseal in Strathmore, factor to the 3rd Lord Reay also his third cousin and a large dealer of cattle, reputedly wealthy, but best remembered for taking Rob Donn into his family.
Iain has been recorded in numerous “Contract of Wadset, Tacks, Sasines and other registered articles”, usually with the title of John Mackay of Clashneach.

Donald Mackay of Clashneach and John’s daughter Mary are recorded as having children, as yet I have not found a record of a named child or time frame. I have found reference that Donald and Mary retired to Muiseal, also that it would appear their eldest son was John, who at some stage lived in Melness and the second son was James. Also yet to confirm that Donald was the son of William oig. Mary may have been born abt 1730.

There is also a mention in Ian Grimbles, :The World of Rob Donn” of Donald of the Lugs (cut off cows ear markings) The reference is that Mary was married to this Donald of the Lugs, who appears not to be Donald of Clashneach, so it is possible Mary married twice.

Ian, I would certainly be appreciative if you are able to throw further enlightenment on Donald, Barbara and Mary.

Re: Reply #123 on: Sunday 12 March 06 04:17 GMT (UK)
“wonder where you found  the approx. marriage date of 1749 for John, Borley and Marion Mackay?”
Ian I will tie this in with the Lieut Donald and Donald of Borley listing.

Donald NZ

[IanB]

Donald,
I'm afraid I am going to run out of time before I respond to all of your points. However, I will make a start.

Rob Donn was not a Morison. Whether his proper name was  Mackay or Calder I don't know and I doubt that anyone does. It seems very unlikely he was related by blood to the chiefly line and if he was a Mackay, he would have been an adherent.

The minister recorded many Calders in the Parish Register but he gave most of them aliases. Not patronymics but other aliases. Very occasionally, he gave Mackay as an alias but not freqwuently enough to suggest it was a common one.A Mackay alias would not be helpful for identification purposes, which is the most common reason for an alias - to distinguish between all the Robert Mackays, (or in your case Donald Mackays). He was not, of course, a local person nor was Gaelic his mother tongue.

The Mackays claim him as one of their own but I have read nothing that supports this. I will always think of him as just Rob Donn.

I descend from his daughter Christine or Christian. You may recall Grimble relating how Mary Morison (Rob Donn's first love?) married a the joiner/carpenter and their son, Hugh Murray, married Rob's daughter Christine. Well, that lady's second marriage was to John macUilliam mhicUisdean 'icEachainn ruaidh Morison. The only offsprring of that second marriage was Hugh Morison who with Fairly Reay MacCulloch produced a son, Donald, my 4x great gandfather, who lived at Lerin (Leirinmore on maps). One of my distant cousins still lives on that croft in Lerin.

I will respond to the Barbara Sutherland controversy later, although I don't have any firm dates to offer. I do have some logic, though.

Ian

[IanB]

Donald,

As I said in my previous post, I don't have any firm dates. These are very scarce in all three of the books I have been referring to.

However, there does not seem to be much controversy regarding (1) Kenneth Sutherland. "The Book of Mackay"; "The History of the House -----"; and "The World of Rob Donn" all seem to have him as the son of (2)John Sutherland and Catherine nic Tutor of Farr. Similarly, all three have him as the father of (3) the John Sutherland who married Isabel nic Iain macEachainn (John of Clasneach).

You have estimated the birth of (2) as ca. 1680 and his wife, Margaret, as 1685. Add 25 or 20 years to their dob and you get 1705 for an approx. marriage date.

Assume (1) Kenneth's dob one year later, i.e. 1706. Add 20 years for an est. marriage date for Kenneth of 1726.

Assume (3) John's birth 1 year later, i.e. 1727. Grimble reports his marriage was in 1747. Age 20 seems a bit young for marriage
but within reasonable range.

Barbara is a bit more difficult. I think Grimble is wrong and the Rev. MacDonald  correctly described Kenneth Sutherland as Captain George's uncle, making Captain George's mother, Barbara, Kenneth's sister.

With regard to dates, I'm sorry that I don't have any. However, assume (2)John Sutherland's dob was ca. 1680 and his wife, Margaret, was abt. 1685.  Add 25/20 years for a marriage date of approx. 1705.

Grimble describes Barbara Sutherland as old in 1747. How old is "old"? 50 to 60? This suggests she was born about 1697 to 1707. Probably closer to 1707.

In any event, if (1) Kenneth's dob was close to 1707, he could not have been the father of
Barbara. She was the mother of a Captain in 1757. Assume Capt. George was 25 in 1757, that gives him a dob of 1732. Assume Barbara was 20 to 25 when Capt. George was born, this gives a her a dob of between 1707 to 1712.

 I recognize that I have done a lot of assuming but I think they are reasonable assumptions.

Ian

[afulton]

Hi

Could you check for a Robert McKay born @ 1794 father William McKay mother Johan or Johanna

Thanks

Alan Fulton

[Donald NZ]

Hello Andy and Ian

On looking back through Andy’s posts there are several postings to this thread that should now have their own thread, as they have started to clutter up Andy’s original post of:

“I have a copy of the parish register for Durness for Baptisms and Marriages from 1764-1814. If anyone would like me to do a lookup I would be more than happy to”.

As the initial inquiry to Andy on these subjects were originally from myself I will list these new threads as
“Donald Mackay of Clashneach”,- ”Peggy MacDiarmid & Donald of Sheigra”, and “Morrison - Strathmore and Arnoboll 1780 period”

Thank you Andy for all the information you have provided, on these subjects. I hope by me starting these subjects as separate threads that it will make your thread more manageable. Andy, to complete the tidy up, I will re-list with you a concise item for lookup, this will avoid you having to look back through any subjects I have commenced.

My apologies to you Ian, for not having got back to you sooner, however with these new threads each response will now be more specific to a subject.

Best wishes
Donald NZ

[Donald NZ]

Hello Andy
I hope you agree with me in tidying up my queries by creating new threads. They were becoming too involved and not just a case of searching for a specific parish entry.

Andy, I have found a record of several years ago and do not know where I derived the information from.
It reads:
Date: 28 SEP 1771 Entries in the Durness Parish Records:
Sons of Donald Mackay
JAMES MACKAY
Date: 29 JAN 1769
JOHN MACKAY
Date: 17 OCT 1767

Would you happen to have any information on these two entries?
Donald NZ

[starsista]

Kia ora Ian 

re: Morrison, MacKay, MacCulloch, Sutherland, Dingwall, MacLeod, Donn, Calder,

Your sig has two names that are of interest to me from the Durness area, I wonder whether they are, indeed, from that area.  McLeod and Dingwall.

I have, thanks to Andy, Merran McLeod married Neil, often spelled Niel, Dingwall on 26 January 1827 in Durness.

Neil was born Clashneach in 1800 and Merran was born about 1805, I have no details as to where.  Maybe another email to Andy might help me find this information, if she is from Durness area in the first place.  Of course if these are connected to your research, I would love to hear from you.

Jeni downunder in Aotearoa

[IanB]

Hi Jeni,

Alexander Dingwall, the father of Neil (and three others) was the brother of my 6x greatgrandmother, Isabella. Neil was born/christened in Durness (Clashneach) Dec 18, 1800. His mother was Christian Mackay. My notes say that the Dingwall family came from Clyne parish.

Merran MacLeod does not appear to have any connection with my MacLeod 7x greatgrandmother. I notice a member-submitted IGI entry for a Merran MacLeod "about 1810". I did not recognize the place of birth given.

Not much, I'm afraid, but perhaps Andy can be more helpful.

Spring is sprung in Ontario (almost)

Ian