Author Topic: Re mystery Grandfather  (Read 17896 times)

Offline suehogben

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Re: Re mystery Grandfather
« Reply #36 on: Friday 07 May 10 09:06 BST (UK) »
Hello Cando,

I did a search first using the asterixed dates, easier as I can search by name ,but  then trawled through the unlisted ones, available on Ancestry, this was  a case of searching each and every area! Took me days!!!.

From my search this is the info i have for the Irwins.

1925 Arthur & Isabell at 16 Laburnam St
1926 Arthur only at 16 Laburnam St (with Harry) not found Isabelle
1927 Arthur only at 16 Laburnam St (with Harry ) not found Isabelle
1928 Isabelle at no 27 Laburnam St with Harry (Arthur still at no 16)
1931 Isabelle at no 27 Laburnam St with Harry (Arthur still listed as at no 16)

The next I find them is at 1936 when Arthur and Isabelle are both at no 27 Laburnam St, again in 1937, by now Harry has moved to 408 William street.

Tying the link in further with the Lynch family, in 1935 and 1936 Harry Powis is living at 408 William Street,
not found where he is in 1937 yet, nor in the dates leading up to 1935, (1932-1934).

1938  ?
1939  ?  
1940  ? There doesn't seem to be a searchable list (on Ancestry anyway)

Not found him yet in the 1942 roll, still trawling.....

1943 and he's now at 317 Beaconsfield Parade with Marie Theresa Lynch as guesthouse proprietress.

So a lot more trawling to do, but certainly looks like there might well be a friendship with those of the Lynch family, more avenues to explore

Offline suehogben

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Re: Re mystery Grandfather
« Reply #37 on: Friday 07 May 10 09:25 BST (UK) »
Just to pick your brains a bit more....

Harry supposedly returned to Australia in 1920, but the first I can find him is in 1924 when he's living at Whitehorse road Indi Ringwood, c/o Mr William Ward Draper. I'm in the process of trawling through the 1921/22 polls , but not found him yet, I'm assuming that he would be in the Melbourne or surrounding areas.

When soldiers returned from the war ,what normally happened to them? If they didn't have families to come home to how did they start to rebuild a life? Find somewhere to live, work etc? Were they just left to fend for themselves, or were there resettlemeny type packages for them?Work would be important to him i would have thought, because at this early stage he had a wife and 3 children to support back here in England, and according to my aunty (as told to her by her Grandma) he used to send money back for them.

This was until he was informed that his wife had had another child by a married man, the enraged wife wrote and told Harry about this, and apparently all contact was lost after this, and the children all grew up thinking he was dead.

I don't know if anyone wrote to tell him that his wife had died from TB not long after this, so he might well think that he was still married, or maybe he divorced her, or just chose to forget this part of his life.


Offline tropicalj

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Re: Re mystery Grandfather
« Reply #38 on: Friday 07 May 10 10:22 BST (UK) »
I am not an expert but  I  do feel electoral rolls were mainted for election purpose and it was not compulsory to vote in the 1920's.


So you may not find him on every roll.



a few good article about Soldier settlement

http://www.jcu.edu.au/aff/history/articles/keneley2.htm
Jenn
When you search for ancestors, you find great friends!
I live in Townsville researching
TOWNSEND,PINNEGAR, STRANGE, PULLEN, GRIFFIN from Wiltshire,,
SHOEBRIDGE, VINALL, BRINDLE, Kent
BAYLEY, Dorset,Yorkshire,
HAIR, Durham,
CUMMINS, BROWNLESS from Yorkshire,
EDSALL,  Cornwall,
MORGAN, HENNESSY, BAKER,  Ireland.
VAN REYK Sri Lanka
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.au

Offline judb

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Re: Re mystery Grandfather
« Reply #39 on: Friday 07 May 10 10:54 BST (UK) »
Sue, the person he is with in 1924 is William Ward DAVIDSON whose occupation is 'draper'.

The suburb he is living in is Ringwood.  The name "Indi" is the electoral division of that Ringwood is in. 

It's confusing because Australian electoral rolls are for both Federal ( whole of Australia) and State parliamentary elections.  The divisions have different names depending on whether it's a State or a Federal election and then they just seem to change for reasons of populations changes etc as well.  The use of electoral rolls for both types of election is also the reason for the dates not being consistent - they are updated on a continuous basis but only published just before an election, so not published every year.

Hope that helps.  Judith



DYER - Wilts, London, Somerset, MIDLANE - Hants, Wilts, SONE - Hants, WRIGHT - London, Hants, SEAGER - Deptford, DWYER, FERGUSON - Victoria, MASON - Woodford Vic, BALLARD - South Wales, GOULDBY - Lowestoft
"Time present and time past are both perhaps present in time future..." T S Eliot

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Offline suehogben

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Re: Re mystery Grandfather
« Reply #40 on: Monday 02 August 10 16:03 BST (UK) »
Hello,
Continuing my search for Harry Powis, i now have his records from the care ? NAA, and it only muddies the water even more.

I wasn't sure whether to start a new thread, or carry on with this one, as all the plot and explanations are here already.

On one of the forms, well twice actually, it gives his actual (supposed) date of birth as 30/01/1888, as of yet, still haven't found a Powis who fits this, certainly not a Harry.

But the odd thing is, on one of the forms, it gives date of death as 8/10/1957, which is good, as that means that the Harry who's records that i have the burial for is the correct one.
However, one part says age 69, which would be correct if he was born in 1888, but someones crossed that out and put 75????? So does that mean that he owned up to his right age on his death bed? Also, if I remember correctly, on his death cert was the age 75? Would it be that he was too old to join the army in 1914, and knocked a few years off his life to make him elliglble?
Another page has a written piece on the bottom as follows (have put ? when unsure of word) The a/n was not in receipt of a war pension at time of death, no claim? , has get (?) been lodged ? ? acceptance N.F.A. ???.
Not sure what that all means.

Started a new search for birth around 1882, but so far, still no matches......so very frustrating.

There's also a form there re telephone message, from a Mr McKenzie of 199 clarendon St, South Melbourne, stating 'states x/m dies at ? hospital 8/10/57 and requests a form 20 to be sent to him at the above address. ? add P.S (?)
What was a form 20? I've notice that going back through the posts that McKenzie was the undertaker. I did write to them, but not heard anything, I couldn't find a website for them, or an e-mail address.

Reference to his work before he joined up lists clerk, commission agent, commission work, self-employed, London, and reason for leaving is '? to Australia (presumably emigrating) Last employed says 19th Jan, but doesn't name a year sadly.

What was a commission agent? And why would they be self-employed?

But, at least I do have his proper disembarkation date now, 20/05/1920 ,
from Tilbury, on the Kigoma. Why so late, when the war finished in 1918, were they allowed to stay a while? He was demobbed later in 1920.

He also worked for a Mr W Dickinson Beechleigh Andisons creek Rd Ringwood on his return, albeit for a short period I think, then he asks for subsistance when the work finished. He also worked for a Mr Stevens ,dry acetalyn welding, White Horse Rd, Ringwood as a clerk in 1920..

Rather poignantly, there's a letter there from Harry himself, dated 1920, apparently he was refused subsistance because he had failed to attend an interview, and he claims that the PO didn't deliver his letter until after the time stated, and that he went and asked the PO why they delivered his letter late. He also states that he's supporting his wife and 2 children back in England. Lovely legible writing though, at least i have something tangible of his now, albeit a copy.......

I keep reading these files, but because a lot of it is in code, I don't quite understand them all, and the writings not too brill on some of it.

Any advice now, or ideas gladly received, I had hoped that when I had this further info,(all 48 pages of it!) that it would clear things up, bad it only seems to muddy the waters even further......was he born 1888 or 1882? Was he Harry or someone else?

Offline tropicalj

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Re: Re mystery Grandfather
« Reply #41 on: Monday 02 August 10 22:02 BST (UK) »
How lovely for you to have something tangible like a letter, very poignant

A lot of men in WW1 did put their ages down by around the 5 year mark  ( I know my grandfather did) 

The funeral director may have very well written  to  fill in the necessary document to get assistance to cover the cost of the funeral perhaps

As WW1 did not finish untill Nov 1918  a good deal of Aussies did not return untill 1919  as they had to wait  for ships to send them home.   

I have noted from helping others in their research  that  the blokes who married overseas did not return immediately as they had to make the arrangements for their wives and any children t come to Australia

Jenn
When you search for ancestors, you find great friends!
I live in Townsville researching
TOWNSEND,PINNEGAR, STRANGE, PULLEN, GRIFFIN from Wiltshire,,
SHOEBRIDGE, VINALL, BRINDLE, Kent
BAYLEY, Dorset,Yorkshire,
HAIR, Durham,
CUMMINS, BROWNLESS from Yorkshire,
EDSALL,  Cornwall,
MORGAN, HENNESSY, BAKER,  Ireland.
VAN REYK Sri Lanka
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.au

Offline majm

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Re: Re mystery Grandfather
« Reply #42 on: Tuesday 03 August 10 00:57 BST (UK) »
Hi there,

"Commission Agent" ... there's several ways to consider this occupation, and here's my explanation, as one of my Grandfathers was a Commission Agent in NSW in the 1920's. 

My explanation is based on oral history, so it may well be only one example of a Commission Agent.  My Grandfather was self-employed, he could read and write and had good numeracy skills too.  Thus his income was based on the commissions he earned by going door to door selling products.  Some products were insurance policies, while other products were practical things, eg domestic items - can openers,  knitting needles, cutlery, teapots etc;  Grandfather walked his own neighbourhood BUT on occasions, if he had a "brand new product" he would pack up these new wares and put them into teachests and board a train and "tour" the rural districts.  The products were "on consignment" to him for upto six months.  At the end of the six months he had to either return the un-sold ones or buy them outright.  The sold ones he paid for.  His "Commission" was thus the gross profit ! 

I also know that a "Commission Agent" collected Rents, ie went door to door to the tenants and collected their weekly rents and received a Commission (a percentage of the gross financial returns) from the rents. 

Most likely there were many other examples of Agency type work for which a self employed person was able to earn a Commission.   Door to Door Sales still exist,  and I realise that there were/still are laws relating to "Hawkers" which may well have been "Commission Agents" of a sort.  ;)

Cheers, 

JM
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Offline suehogben

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Re: Re mystery Grandfather
« Reply #43 on: Tuesday 03 August 10 08:10 BST (UK) »
Thank you both for your replies.

So it is possible then that he lied about his age to join up? I don't suppose the army were too bothered then. Was there an upper age , above which men weren't allowed to enlist? and if he had lied about the year, do you think it would be possible that his actual date of birth could be right, otherwise it's a lot of untruths to remember each time you had to fill in a form .

His grave is paid for in perpetuity, so not sure how that works, I'm assuming that it means that someone funded it for him.

Thanks for the info on commission agents JM, isn't it odd how you get an idea fixed in your head, I was picturing chaps like the ones who work on the stock market for some reason!!! Not sure why, I was wondering how they would do their wheeling and dealing in those days with mobile phones and computers.......I had tried a search on the net, but couldn't seem to get an answer , but what you said makes more sense, even if it does deflate the image slightly.........

What I would give to be able to talk to any of my Gparents (or parents now) I so wish I'd started this sooner, but they were both reluctant to talk about actual family background, and things that I'd unearthed with both sides, I suppose I can see why now, but these days , these days people wouldn't even blink an eye.......in fact, would probably be blurting it all out on Jeremy Kyle show :)

Offline majm

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Re: Re mystery Grandfather
« Reply #44 on: Tuesday 03 August 10 08:22 BST (UK) »
 :D

Chalkies !  The Chaps who used to work on the blackboards, and write up the trades that the BOYS on the Floor of the Sydney Stock Exchange made ;D ...  Those Boys and chalkies used to meet on Friday evenings at the Hotel Australia.  But that was in the late 1960's, early 1970's. 

Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
I do not have a face book or a twitter account.