Salford Council are having a laugh aren't they?

[GrahamH]

Extra thought after I pressed the Post button.

According to the wording of the Acts, Salford could make me pay £18 (or whatever it was raised to in April) for the privilege of undertaking the search myself and they are not doing that.

Better not make too much fuss or they might just twig it and start to do so given the coming cutbacks 

Graham

[acorngen]

Graham,

The fee of 18 pounds is for someone wanting to search the indexes they hold not for them to search them.

I would have thought that under the statutory provisions of providing certificates on request the manual search of the said books/index would be a part of that statutory duty.  The GRO took away their checking service fee as the deemed this to be ilegal so therefore wouldn't charging for a search of the register (that we have no legal right to search) also ilegal?

I have written to the GRO quoting specifics and now await their response before taking this further with the local office.  After all the Registrar General is the next rung of the ladder from Superintendent registrar.  I don't persoanlly see what the difference is between a postal visit and a request in person that could account for an extra fee of a pound being  charged for the postal/phone request

Rob

[GrahamH]

Graham,

The fee of 18 pounds is for someone wanting to search the indexes they hold not for them to search them.

Yes Rob, that's what I said - "undertaking the search myself".

I would have thought that under the statutory provisions of providing certificates on request the manual search of the said books/index would be a part of that statutory duty.

Why? Where in S64/S31 does it mention a search other than by the applicant?

The GRO took away their checking service fee as the deemed this to be ilegal so therefore wouldn't charging for a search of the register (that we have no legal right to search) also ilegal?

There is a legal right for applicants to search the registers. It is provided for in S64/S31. There is (as far as I can see) no statutory duty which says that a superintendant registrar has to undertake a search as part of issuing a certificate. That Salford do undertake a short search is, as they (and the GRO) have explained previously, something which they are allowed (at their discretion) to do under a power provided by the Local Government Act 2003 - so that is also legal.

I have written to the GRO quoting specifics and now await their response before taking this further with the local office.  After all the Registrar General is the next rung of the ladder from Superintendent registrar. 

I expect you'll receive a response along the same lines as Parmesan quoted in his post timed at 17:06 last Wednesday.

I don't persoanlly see what the difference is between a postal visit and a request in person that could account for an extra fee of a pound being  charged for the postal/phone request

The difference is as I spelled out above:

I go into Salford Register Office looking for the birth of Joe Bloggs some time in the 1920s (say), find it in the index, write the exact details on the form and hand it to the registrar and pay £9
or I apply by post, by telephone with a debit/credit card or on-line using the procedure at http://www.salford.gov.uk/familyhistory.htm and linked pages (which includes asking the registrar to search for Joe Bloggs rather than giving the exact details of the certificate required) and pay an extra £1 for that search, which is outside the statutory duty.

Graham

[acorngen]

Graham,

As the registers that are not in the hand of the register not searchable by the public makes a search of such impossible and thus the indexes are produced.  Now I place an application for my cert I put my name parents names date of birth and send it to the registrar.  They have to search that year to locate my birth.  There is no requirement for me to provide them with the office reference.

You didnt answer my question regarding the difference of me going to the office and giving the above details and posting that same information in.  There isn't.  They even post out if I read their page correct.  So for one pound they are opening an envelope.

The GRO stopped their checking service because they believed it to be ilegal to charge for that.  Well I would argue that to charge a pound to find the correct cert is ilegal because it is a statutory duty to provide on request a certificate.  We will wait for the GRO response and that of my MP

Rob

[GrahamH]

Graham,

As the registers that are not in the hand of the register not searchable by the public makes a search of such impossible and thus the indexes are produced.  Now I place an application for my cert I put my name parents names date of birth and send it to the registrar.  They have to search that year to locate my birth.  There is no requirement for me to provide them with the office reference.

The indexes are produced because it is a requirement of the legislation, not for any other reason - e.g. Marriage Act 1949

Every superintendent registrar shall cause indexes of the marriage register books in his office to be made and to be kept with the other records of his office, and the Registrar General shall supply to every superintendent registrar suitable forms for the making of such indexes.

You didnt answer my question regarding the difference of me going to the office and giving the above details and posting that same information in.  There isn't.  They even post out if I read their page correct.  So for one pound they are opening an envelope.

If posting, twice

I go into Salford Register Office looking for the birth of Joe Bloggs some time in the 1920s (say), find it in the index, write the exact details on the form and hand it to the registrar and pay £9
or I apply by post, by telephone with a debit/credit card or on-line using the procedure at http://www.salford.gov.uk/familyhistory.htm and linked pages (which includes asking the registrar to search for Joe Bloggs rather than giving the exact details of the certificate required) and pay an extra £1 for that search, which is outside the statutory duty.

does not make it clear enough, perhaps this third time will. In simple terms, if I go and search the index myself (from a starting point of knowing the event happened in (say) the 1920s) I can find the entry and tell the registrar exactly where in the books to go. If I apply other than in person I can only tell the registrar that I think it happened in the 1920s and require him to undertake the search to find it.

The GRO stopped their checking service because they believed it to be ilegal to charge for that.  Well I would argue that to charge a pound to find the correct cert is ilegal because it is a statutory duty to provide on request a certificate.  We will wait for the GRO response and that of my MP

As stated previously, I expect you'll receive a response along the same lines as Parmesan quoted in his post timed at 17:06 last Wednesday.

Graham

[acorngen]

Well I think this ends all discussion.  I dont agree with it but what more can we do?

Dear Mr Burns,

Thank you for your recent enquiry regarding the discretionary charge associated with the issuing of copy BDM certificates and also the letter sent you by my Superintendant Registrar, Rebecca Wardley.

Having noted your comments, I would like to stress that the charge for providing a copy certificate is in line with our statutory obligations and as such the cost of £ 9:00 is in accordance with regulations. The additional charge of £1:00, is a local discretionary charge which has been levied to go some way towards the additional associated costs incurred in producing the certificate.

Following your email, enquiries have been made with the GRO who have confirmed that such an additional charge is permissible and is in line with the Local Government Act 2003 on the basis that it is the responsibility of each local authority to determine whether any additional charges are to be levied.

I would also mention, that as part of the service provided, we recognise the speed at which copy certificates are provided is important to those making the request. As such, the service provided as standard has resulted in 99.6% of genealogy requests being dealt with within 3 working days.

We are proud of the fact that this level of service is being delivered within the £10:00 charge and that the only time this fee is increased is if a copy certificate is need immediately and the request is made in person.

I hope you agree that this level of service favours favourably when compared with many other local authorities who describe a standard service as anything up to 5 working days.

If my response is not to your satisfaction or you should you wish to discuss the matter further then please do not hesitate to contact me using the details outlined below.

Regards

[Parmesan]

"I hope you agree that this level of service favours favourably when compared with many other local authorities who describe a standard service as anything up to 5 working days."

Actually, no I don't agree.  Maybe they should give the option £10 for a 3 day turnaround and £9 like MOST OTHER Authorities AND the GRO for 3 days plus?

Seems that the law is a complete ass.  "it is the responsibility of each local authority to determine whether any additional charges are to be levied."  That basically gives them carte blanche to charge whatever they damn well like!

Oh well, Salford won't be getting my business.

Thanks for your efforts Rob 

[MUMMYG]

I dont agree either, my local authority charge £9 and get them to me by return of post as they did when the fee was £7  I still send an sae and they still use it.

[Parmesan]

I think they mean 'compares' favourably as too