Author Topic: Salford Council are having a laugh aren't they?  (Read 52033 times)

Offline plimmerian

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Re: Salford Council are having a laugh aren't they?
« Reply #72 on: Monday 17 May 10 22:50 BST (UK) »
NB:

"Thank you for your enquiry.

Birth Certificate :  **********

I am sorry that you have experienced difficulties in obtaining a certificate, quoting a GRO index reference,  for a birth certificate registered within the last 50 years or a death certificate of a child aged under 16 years registered within the last 50 years.

The General Register Office has procedures concerning applications for certificates which fall into these categories which are to safeguard individual's identity and eliminate the risk of certificates being obtained with fraudulent intent.

Online requests for these certificates must include the correct date of birth or death and full parents' names.  If you do not know this information, you could contact our call centre on 0845 603 7788 Monday to Friday 8 am to 8 pm and Saturday 9 am to 4 pm.  If you can give a valid reason for requiring the certificate,  the call centre operator may be able to authorise your request for the certificate.  Payment is by credit/debit card and costs £8.50 for an application quoting a GRO index reference.

Please see   Our Website   for more information.      http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Registeringlifeevents/DG_175444

Regards 
Public Relations Unit
Certificate Services"

I got her brother's birth certificate born 3 years previous which just fell outside the "50 year rule" - what a joke!

 ::)

Offline GrahamH

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Re: Salford Council are having a laugh aren't they?
« Reply #73 on: Tuesday 18 May 10 07:42 BST (UK) »
I don't really understand the last post and what the joke is - unless it is thought that measures aimed at prevention of identity theft and other frauds are a laughing matter.

Graham

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Salford Council are having a laugh aren't they?
« Reply #74 on: Tuesday 18 May 10 18:55 BST (UK) »
I don't really understand the last post and what the joke is - unless it is thought that measures aimed at prevention of identity theft and other frauds are a laughing matter.

Graham

Quite honestly Graham those measure are a joke.
All a person needs to do to circumvent the ridiculous office policy is to phone up.
The GRO are obligated to provide anyone in the world with a certified copy of any register entry they wish to purchase (with the exception of stillbirths).
They have no legal right to ask what use the person is going to make with that certified copy and have no legal way of preventing the person getting it.

The office policy is simply paying lip service to ID theft and fraud.
Cheers
Guy
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Offline Parmesan

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Re: Salford Council are having a laugh aren't they?
« Reply #75 on: Tuesday 18 May 10 21:43 BST (UK) »
This has turned into a very educational thread.  I'm learning a lot!
Paternal: Staffordshire, Shropshire, Lancashire, Cheshire, Durham, Wales, Arrondissements Oudenaarde and Gent, Belgium, -  - Maternal: Cheshire, Lancashire, Ireland


Offline GrahamH

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Re: Salford Council are having a laugh aren't they?
« Reply #76 on: Tuesday 18 May 10 22:48 BST (UK) »
I understand what you are saying Guy and the acceptance of phone requests is certainly a weak link. Having worked on the other side (so to speak) I would expect that the procedures in place are not paying lip service but an attempt to deal with the real problem - that successive governments have not got to grips with the matter (probably because ministers and MPs don't actually know what the existing law allows).

Graham

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Salford Council are having a laugh aren't they?
« Reply #77 on: Wednesday 19 May 10 07:33 BST (UK) »
I understand what you are saying Guy and the acceptance of phone requests is certainly a weak link. Having worked on the other side (so to speak) I would expect that the procedures in place are not paying lip service but an attempt to deal with the real problem - that successive governments have not got to grips with the matter (probably because ministers and MPs don't actually know what the existing law allows).

Graham

The last Government and ministers knew exactly what the the existing law allows. In fact not only did they support the law that anyone in the world could apply for any certificate they attempted to make access easier.

To answer the specific point about anyone purchasing certificates the answer given here (10 March 2000) http://tinyurl.com/2wnlqjd may be of interest.

Possible one of the most promising comments (for family historians) came earlier in a question about the White paper "Civil Registration : A Vital Change" on the 1st February 1990 when Mr Freeman stated -

"Finally, the White Paper proposes a distinction between historic registration records—those at least 75 years old—and more recent ones. Although access to all records will be maintained through a right to buy non-official copies of them, there will be new rules governing the purchase of certified copies of recent records for use for official purposes. These will help to curb an abuse which has arisen. By contrast, it is intended that information from the older registration records will be entirely within the public domain. It will be possible to buy either certified or non-official copies of certificates of events which occurred 75 years ago or longer, and it is also proposed that an agency outside the Government should hold copies of these records and provide the browsing facilities which are sought by genealogists, researchers and historians."

Cheers
Guy
http://anguline.co.uk/Framland/index.htm   The site that gives you facts not promises!
http://burial-inscriptions.co.uk Tombstones & Monumental Inscriptions.

As we have gained from the past, we owe the future a debt, which we pay by sharing today.

Offline GrahamH

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Re: Salford Council are having a laugh aren't they?
« Reply #78 on: Wednesday 19 May 10 08:26 BST (UK) »
Thanks Guy.

I'm still not convinced that MPs & ministers actually know what they are talking about. I recall an MP for a constituency not a million miles away from here trying to justify not publicising MP's expenses and quoting the DPA as covering companies - an MP who was one of the main supporters of the related change to FoIA in 2008  :)

The system is certainly a mess but, at the same time, we have to remember that civil registration was not put in place to help family historians. That is merely a by-product. Whilst I'm sure very few people would hate to see the facility disappear it is a sad fact that the modern world has to combat fraudulent activities which are increasing rather than decreasing.

Certainly, to that extent, measures aimed at prevention of identity theft and other frauds are not a laughing matter.

Graham

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Salford Council are having a laugh aren't they?
« Reply #79 on: Wednesday 19 May 10 18:37 BST (UK) »
Thanks Guy.

I'm still not convinced that MPs & ministers actually know what they are talking about. I recall an MP for a constituency not a million miles away from here trying to justify not publicising MP's expenses and quoting the DPA as covering companies - an MP who was one of the main supporters of the related change to FoIA in 2008  :)

The system is certainly a mess but, at the same time, we have to remember that civil registration was not put in place to help family historians. That is merely a by-product. Whilst I'm sure very few people would hate to see the facility disappear it is a sad fact that the modern world has to combat fraudulent activities which are increasing rather than decreasing.

Certainly, to that extent, measures aimed at prevention of identity theft and other frauds are not a laughing matter.

Graham

The thought that civil regististration was not put in place to help family historians is another of those myths often repeated by those who should know better.
Part of the original remit of Civil Registers was to aid family history by making it easier to prove claims of heredity.

Civil registers were not a new idea but a development of parish registers. This may be shown by the introductory paragraph of the 1836 Act for registering Births, Deaths and marriages in England.

“Whereas it is expedient to provide the Means for a complete Register of the Births, Deaths, and Marriages of His Majesty's Subjects in England : And whereas an Act passed in the Fifty-second Year of the Reign of His late Majesty King George the Third, intituled An Act for the better regulating Parish and other Registers of Births, Baptisms, Marriages, and Burials in England, and also an Act passed in the Fourth Year of the Reign of His late Majesty King George the Fourth, intituled An Act for amending the Laws respecting the Solemnization of Marriages in England, are insufficient for the Purpose aforesaid : Be it therefore enacted by the King's most Excellent Majesty, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the Authority of the same, That after the First Day of March in the Year One thousand eight hundred and thirty-seven so much of the said Acts as relates to the Registration of Marriages shall be repealed.”

One of the reasons for keeping Parish Registers was in the words of the 1812 Act

“Whereas the amending the Manner and Form of keeping and of preserving Registers of Baptisms, Marriages, and Burials of His Majesty's Subjects in the several Parishes and Places in England, will greatly facilitate the Proof of Pedigrees of Persons claiming to be entitled to Real or Personal Estates, and be otherwise of great public Benefit and Advantage ;”

Back in 1644 an Ordinance was passed authorising 
“and that said book shall be showed, by such as keep the same, to all persons reasonably desiring to search for the birth, baptizing, marriage, or burial of any person therein registered, and to take a copy or procure a certificate thereof.”

As for the ID theft, fraud argument it is a non starter.
Any system that relies on any public record as a part of any form of security is not only too weak to be of any use but it is negligent in the it promotes an false impression of security.
Cheers
Guy

http://anguline.co.uk/Framland/index.htm   The site that gives you facts not promises!
http://burial-inscriptions.co.uk Tombstones & Monumental Inscriptions.

As we have gained from the past, we owe the future a debt, which we pay by sharing today.

Offline GrahamH

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Re: Salford Council are having a laugh aren't they?
« Reply #80 on: Wednesday 19 May 10 18:41 BST (UK) »
I stand corrected Guy, thanks.

Graham