Author Topic: Salford Council are having a laugh aren't they?  (Read 52070 times)

Offline GrahamH

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Re: Salford Council are having a laugh aren't they?
« Reply #171 on: Thursday 29 July 10 22:45 BST (UK) »
Perhaps, Rob, you should write to the local newspaper for Gwynedd and inform the local council tax payers of how grateful you are for their subsidy of your business from their contributions  ;D

No doubt they will be most impressed  ;D

Graham

Offline Parmesan

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Re: Salford Council are having a laugh aren't they?
« Reply #172 on: Thursday 29 July 10 23:26 BST (UK) »
there's nothing wrong with praising the authorities that do a good job without wanting a pound of flesh  :)

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Offline acorngen

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Re: Salford Council are having a laugh aren't they?
« Reply #173 on: Friday 30 July 10 04:44 BST (UK) »
Graham,

I make a point of telling everyone I see.  In fact at York I made a major point of telling the Gwynned group that was there

Rob
WYATT, COX, STRATTON, all from south Derbyshire and the STS, LEI border Burns Fellows Gough Wilks from STS in particular Black Country and now heading into SOP

Offline GrahamH

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Re: Salford Council are having a laugh aren't they?
« Reply #174 on: Friday 30 July 10 07:53 BST (UK) »
there's nothing wrong with praising the authorities that do a good job without wanting a pound of flesh  :)

That isn't the point though is it? As with everywhere else, whatever work is done has to be paid for. Should public sector employees do more than their statutory duty to help researchers (including researchers who are being paid to do the work as Rob mentions)? If they do that means the general taxpayer is subsidising that research.

That might appear to be fine and dandy when we are the recipients but what if it is (say) a council electrician who does some work for free on his mate's house when he should be doing something else?

By all means let's hold people to account if they don't fulfil their statutory duties but let's not do people down because they don't give us the same freebies that others do.

Graham,
I make a point of telling everyone I see.  In fact at York I made a major point of telling the Gwynned group that was there
Rob

With respect Rob, they are a group with the same interests. Would general taxpayers be as happy to see your business subsidised by them?  ;D

Graham


Offline acorngen

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Re: Salford Council are having a laugh aren't they?
« Reply #175 on: Friday 30 July 10 15:03 BST (UK) »
Graham,

The point I was making was that some will go above and beyond to help people yet others wont.  As you say Gwynned FHS may have same interests but I was just making the point anybody pleased with a service would have made to people from the same area.  The fact the FHS as no connection, other than by voluntarially transcribing an index for the BMD site, with the registry office.

We all expect people to go above and beyond.  Ok we shouldn't but that is human nature.  Your analogy above btw doesn't work because to go work on his mates house for free would be a form of moonlighting.  Now if you had said whilst working on Joe Bloggs house he put in for nothing extra sockets but then refuses on yours because Joe Bloggs was a friend

Rob
WYATT, COX, STRATTON, all from south Derbyshire and the STS, LEI border Burns Fellows Gough Wilks from STS in particular Black Country and now heading into SOP

Offline GrahamH

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Re: Salford Council are having a laugh aren't they?
« Reply #176 on: Friday 30 July 10 16:08 BST (UK) »
Your analogy above btw doesn't work because to go work on his mates house for free would be a form of moonlighting. 

A rose by any other name  ;D My point is that both the registrar and the (theoretical) electrician are doing work at taxpayer cost instead of at customer cost.

Another analogy then. Someone comes to do a job for you at an hourly rate. He spends 4 hours at your house and bills you for four hours but half the time he is on the phone and only actually worked on your job for two hours. Are you happy to pay the full four hours even though it should have only cost you two?

Graham

Offline Gartag

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Re: Salford Council are having a laugh aren't they?
« Reply #177 on: Saturday 31 July 10 07:14 BST (UK) »
My apologies if this point has already been covered.  I have only just come on this thread and have read through to page 6.  Unfortunately I will have to come back to it later to complete but wanted to comment on something that appears to have been dropped since page 4 (or even 3).

There was a lot of consternation regarding £1 for P&P when having sent a stamped adddressed envelope.  I know this is irrelevant, but it is often how two people can actually argue without realising the actual cause.  What dies the requesting party mean by SAE?   I thought (years back) that it meant Stamped Addressed Envelope.  I discovered that it was Self Addressed Envelope!  This meant that sending a Stamped Self Addressed Envelope (SSAE) would often still incur postage.

Just a thought for perusal and to insure I find my way back to this thread (and remind myself to continue from page 7)

Thanks all  ;D

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Offline acorngen

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Re: Salford Council are having a laugh aren't they?
« Reply #178 on: Saturday 31 July 10 13:20 BST (UK) »
Ok I have had a written response from Salford councils superintendent registrar stating that the one pound fee is for admin services which includes time taken to search the manual records, issue of the certificate, envelope and postal costs and time taken accounting for all services. 

Now tell me if I am wrong (and Graham I would like your view on this as well) but surely all that falls under the statutory requirements?

Rob
WYATT, COX, STRATTON, all from south Derbyshire and the STS, LEI border Burns Fellows Gough Wilks from STS in particular Black Country and now heading into SOP

Offline GrahamH

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Re: Salford Council are having a laugh aren't they?
« Reply #179 on: Saturday 31 July 10 15:30 BST (UK) »
Issue of the certificate is definitely within the statutory duty,

Envelope, postal costs and time taken accounting for all services could be argued about but I would expect that they would be within the statutory duty as Parliament could easily have envisaged that issue of the certificate would not always be immediate.  Indeed, Salford's own procedures envisage posting out within 2 days for personal applications as well as postal ones so that argues that it is within the statutory duty.

I don't think, though, that searching the manual records (by the registrar's staff) is covered by the statutory duty and, given how little time £1 buys these days, I wouldn't have thought it an unreasonable amount.

The current text on the Statute Law database for the relevant Acts is:
Marriage Act 1949
Quote
64. Searches of indexes kept by superintendent registrars.— (1) Every superintendent registrar shall cause indexes of the marriage register books in his office to be made and to be kept with the other records of his office, and the Registrar General shall supply to every superintendent registrar suitable forms for the making of such indexes.
(2) Any person shall be entitled [F1 at any time when the register office is required to be open for the transaction of public business] to search the said indexes, and to have a certified copy of any entry in the said marriage register books under the hand of the superintendent registrar, on payment to the superintendent registrar of the following fee, that is to say:—
(a)for every general search, the sum of [F2 £18.00]
(b). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . F3
(c)for every certified copy, the sum of [F4 £7.00]
Annotations:
Amendments (Textual)
F1 Words substituted by Registration Service Act 1953 (c. 37), Sch. 1 para. 14(a)
F2 Fee in s. 64(2)(a) payable (1.4.1998) by virtue of S.I. 1997/2939, art.2, Sch. (which S.I. was revoked (1.4.1999) by S.I. 1998/3171, art. 3) and that same fee payable: (1.4.1999) by virtue of S.I. 1998/3171, art. 2, Sch. (which S.I. was revoked (1.4.2000) by S.I. 1999/3311, art. 3); (1.4.2000) by virtue of S.I. 1999/3311, art. 2, Sch. (which S.I was revoked (1.4.2003) by S.I. 2002/3076, art. 3); (1.4.2003
and Births & Deaths Registration Act 1953
Quote
31. Searches of indexes kept by superintendent registrars.— (1) Every superintendent registrar shall cause indexes of the registers of live–births and registers of deaths in his register office to be made and to be kept with the other records of that office, and the Registrar General shall supply to every superintendent registrar suitable forms for the making of such indexes.
(2) Any person shall be entitled at any time when the register office is required to be open for the transaction of public business to search the said indexes, and to have a certified copy of any entry in the said registers under the hand of the superintendent registrar, on payment by that person to the superintendent registrar of the following fees respectively, that is to say—
(a)for every general search, the sum of [F1 £18.00];
(b). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . F2
(c)for every certified copy, the sum of [F3 £7.00].
Annotations:
Amendments (Textual)
F1 Fee in s. 31(2)(a) payable (1.4.2003) by virtue of S.I. 2002/3076, art. 2, Sch. 
F2 S. 31(2)(b) repealed by S.I. 1968/1242, Sch. 2
F3 Fee in s. 31(2)(c) substituted (1.4.2003) by S.I. 2002/3076, art. 2, Sch. 

There is similar wording for searches of indexes kept by Registrar General, the main difference as far as this debate goes being that there is a fee for searching indexes held by superintendant registrars and none for searching registers held by the Registrar General (leaving aside, for the moment, any current lack of access to the latter).

I've been thinking about this over the last few days and back to visits to Myddleton Street where one searched the indexes oneself, found the entry one wanted and wrote the exact reference on the application form so that GRO staff could go straight to the entry without any searching.

Given the similarity of the wording I think that "have a certified copy of any entry" in the case of superintendant registrars also depends on the applicant being able to point out the exact entry.
i.e. I go into Salford Register Office looking for the birth of Joe Bloggs some time in the 1920s (say), find it in the index, write the exact details on the form and hand it to the registrar and pay £9
or I apply by post, by telephone with a debit/credit card or on-line using the procedure at http://www.salford.gov.uk/familyhistory.htm and linked pages (which includes asking the registrar to search for Joe Bloggs rather than giving the exact details of the certificate required) and pay an extra £1 for that search, which is outside the statutory duty.

Graham