Author Topic: Help what to try next please for EDSALL Henry David Howes  (Read 17934 times)

Offline judb

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Re: Help what to try next please for EDSALL Henry David Howes
« Reply #45 on: Sunday 18 April 10 07:49 BST (UK) »
Thanks for the links JM but, as Jenn says, the dates aren't much use in this case.  Don't know why SA has to be so pernickety with their records  ::)  I have no-one at all from SA so I don't have much experience with SA and tend to steer clear of helping anyone looking for SA info.

Quite posssible, Jenn that the two lads from S Wales (or even one of them) went adventuring - or not.  ???

Cheers, Judith
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Offline cando

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Re: Help what to try next please for EDSALL Henry David Howes
« Reply #46 on: Sunday 18 April 10 08:12 BST (UK) »
Just in case you may need these - Immigrant records in South Australia.....

http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=83&c=4997

However we still haven't been able to help Jenn.

Cheers
Cando
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Offline majm

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Re: Help what to try next please for EDSALL Henry David Howes
« Reply #47 on: Sunday 18 April 10 09:07 BST (UK) »
Some thoughts

HNE married twice, second wife was Sarah Watts, married 1847, no known children of that marriage.
HDHE was born abt 1855, his father was HNE, they were both from Wales.  We are trying to find HDHE's birth details.
HNE's "possible" sister's children had names including North and Watts
HNE's sister in law's children had names including Edsall and North. 
          When ?   before or after HNE married Sarah Watts ...
                       if before, then perhaps there's a link not yet explored ...
HNE had at least one son, Henry E junior who was an ironmonger

Henry Edsall, Junior, the ironmonger was he  Henry David Howes Edsall?
 
a) HNE first arrived in abt 1843, so if we find that arrival, and check for his then family does it include a son Henry, if so then that one may be the ironmonger and thus a different lad from the one born 1855 ?
b) HDHE born abt 1855 in Wales ... where was he in 1861 a possible has been found but under Howes? Presume not HDHE, so then look for arrival to Sth Aust pre 1861 ie on the ships list from 1855 to 1860  ;)  Perhaps under different spelling or under one of his middle names used as his surname ...  that search if he is NOT found would then tend to support that 1861 Welsh census find ... 

Just some thoughts...

Cheers,  JM


 
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Offline tropicalj

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Re: Help what to try next please for EDSALL Henry David Howes
« Reply #48 on: Sunday 18 April 10 10:00 BST (UK) »
his father was HNE, they were both from Wales.

no that is not the case, only HDHEwas alledgley born in Wales,  this is from a birth registration of one of his children in NSW and his death ceritifcate.  HNE was born in Breage, in Cornwall 1802c

 

HNE's sister in law's children had names including Edsall and North. 
          When ?   before or after HNE married Sarah Watts ...
                       if before, then perhaps there's a link not yet explored ...


not sure of what you are thinking here but his sister married several years before 1855c the year of HDHE birth....

Henry Edsall, Junior, the ironmonger was he  Henry David Howes Edsall? Yes
a) HNE first arrived in abt 1843, so if we find that arrival, and check for his then family does it include a son Henry, if so then that one may be the ironmonger and thus a different lad from the one born 1855 ?

Surely IF there was a son in 1843 he would not be the son born in 1855 and if there was a son who arrived with him what happened to him then????

Jenn

When you search for ancestors, you find great friends!
I live in Townsville researching
TOWNSEND,PINNEGAR, STRANGE, PULLEN, GRIFFIN from Wiltshire,,
SHOEBRIDGE, VINALL, BRINDLE, Kent
BAYLEY, Dorset,Yorkshire,
HAIR, Durham,
CUMMINS, BROWNLESS from Yorkshire,
EDSALL,  Cornwall,
MORGAN, HENNESSY, BAKER,  Ireland.
VAN REYK Sri Lanka
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Offline majm

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Re: Help what to try next please for EDSALL Henry David Howes
« Reply #49 on: Sunday 18 April 10 12:15 BST (UK) »
Hi Jenn,

I apologise for mistakenly typing that both HNE and HNE’s father were from Wales. As I have both Cornish and Welsh forebears, I apologise twice over for that mistooken. 

I apologise for offering the suggestion that HNE’s sister in law may be related to HNE other than through his marriage to Sarah Watts. I was suggesting that as his sister in law had a child named Edsall North that perhaps if that child was born before Sarah Watts 1847 marriage then perhaps that avenue has not yet been explored in respect of HDHE’s origins.  As either half-sibling for any of Ann Smith’s children,or perhaps extending to cousins.  To me, Edsall is not a well known name, either as a surname or middle name. 

I apologise for not realising that Henry Edsall junior the ironmonger was also Henry David Howes Edsall.  I thought HDHE was a gardener/seed merchant or the like... to me, that’s a very different occupation from ironmonger, and my thoughts were that perhaps the ironmonger was a son from the first marriage, while HDHE was a son, perhaps adopted, from the second marriage. I was not confusing a possible birth from 1843 or earlier with a birth circa 1855, so I apologise again if my post was confusing. 

My Best Wishes and Kind Thoughts, remembering your opening post includes:
  My assumption is he was an adopted son???
Your thoughts and help would be appreciated.



Cheers,  JM
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Offline tropicalj

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Re: Help what to try next please for EDSALL Henry David Howes
« Reply #50 on: Sunday 18 April 10 13:34 BST (UK) »
JM.no need to apologise so much  you are only trying to help and I do appreciate it

Edsall is not a common name in Australia  and  the Edsall seem  to be mostly related to each other.   

I do not explain myself too well.... that is my fault  and not yours

I and no doubt you have found  that children who are down as children of a couple we find that couple is realy the grandparents.   

My assumption still is that he was an adopted son unless somehow I can find proof of his birth somewhere

Jenn
When you search for ancestors, you find great friends!
I live in Townsville researching
TOWNSEND,PINNEGAR, STRANGE, PULLEN, GRIFFIN from Wiltshire,,
SHOEBRIDGE, VINALL, BRINDLE, Kent
BAYLEY, Dorset,Yorkshire,
HAIR, Durham,
CUMMINS, BROWNLESS from Yorkshire,
EDSALL,  Cornwall,
MORGAN, HENNESSY, BAKER,  Ireland.
VAN REYK Sri Lanka
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.au

Offline troods

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Re: Help what to try next please for EDSALL Henry David Howes
« Reply #51 on: Sunday 18 April 10 22:14 BST (UK) »
This has been a fascinating thread - been following it with great interest and indeed maybe the only way of thinking would be adoption.

This  is a problem that I am having with an ancestor of mine - eventually you find that u have no more avenues to source and that u can only make assumptions.

The Edsall name might be a key perhaps - like u said Jenn its unusual. HDHE must have thought/known he was born in Wales to mention it on his marriage & to be recorded on one of his childrens' birth certs and then an informant etc records it on his death cert.

 Just throwing something at u birth - Wales? / New South Wales? Have we eliminated NSW as a place of birth?

Sorry if that previous question has been covered - its early here & am in desperate need of more coffee lol.

Troods
Williams- Devon to Vic Oz;
Holmes - Donnegal to Vic Oz; Hall Westmoreland/Kent to Vic Oz;
Shipwash - Kent;
Edwards - Lambeth;
Nolan - Ireland;
Grady - Kerry to WA Oz;
Matson - Nova Scotia to SA Oz

Offline tropicalj

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Re: Help what to try next please for EDSALL Henry David Howes
« Reply #52 on: Sunday 18 April 10 23:44 BST (UK) »
Hi there Troods

Just to point out  his place of birth is not on his marriage certificate, SA had very limited information on  their marriage certificates over that period of time, more's the pity cause we would have had his parents names, had he say married in Qld, or NSW, or Vic.

I have pursued the Wales as New South Wales but found nothing to help out


thanks for taking an interest

Jenn
When you search for ancestors, you find great friends!
I live in Townsville researching
TOWNSEND,PINNEGAR, STRANGE, PULLEN, GRIFFIN from Wiltshire,,
SHOEBRIDGE, VINALL, BRINDLE, Kent
BAYLEY, Dorset,Yorkshire,
HAIR, Durham,
CUMMINS, BROWNLESS from Yorkshire,
EDSALL,  Cornwall,
MORGAN, HENNESSY, BAKER,  Ireland.
VAN REYK Sri Lanka
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.au

Offline majm

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Re: Help what to try next please for EDSALL Henry David Howes
« Reply #53 on: Monday 19 April 10 02:07 BST (UK) »
Re NSW BDM online Birth records  ;)

The early ones, ie those referenced with the letter "V" are only baptismal records.  Although civil registration commenced in 1856, even the NSWBDM online site recognises that it was not until 1879 that they received regular quarterly returns for BDM events from Clergy.  So for births before 1879, even those from 1850's, there's reasons to suspect that there's many gaps in the NSW records.  The C of E handed their bdm registry to NSW Reg Gen in 1879, that register covered 1825-1855...  :'(

From my own tree, my NSW born 19th Century forebears include bdm certificates for most, but despite much searching for decades by various family members (SAG members etc), birth/baptismal records have not been found for several, including two lasses born in Sydney in the 1850's, raised as Methodists. The NSW marriage certs, death certs and the many births of and early deaths of their children all show these two were born in "Sydney N. S. Wales", and their older and younger siblings birth/baptismal records are all found indexed online at NSW BDM.   Also, the YEAR noted as part of NSW BDM reference is the YEAR that NSW BDM actually entered the info on THEIR records, ie not necessarily the year the event actually occurred. Hence from my own tree, a birth in the Wentworth area (Lower Darling River) that occurred in 1884, was not entered by the Sydney based Reg Gen's office until 1907, so it is indexed with 1907 as its indicated year, and did not come online until 2008  :(

The NSW State Library's film collections in the family history section are extensive and I find them to be more reliable than the NSW BDM online index, especially for the "Early Church Records".

So it is possible that if HDHE was born in NSW, that the registration of his birth or his baptism was simply not forwarded to the NSW BDM Reg General, or that the Reg General did not process that quarter's return, from the civil servants in the 1850's or if baptised C of E from the registers sent to them in 1879.  The 1850's rural registrars were usually part-timers, ie usually a ranked Police officer or Magistrate or Sherrif.  And many of them quit and went off with gold fever running through their minds.   Some quarterly returns would have been lost in transit as they were sent from rural areas via the Royal Mail carried by Cobb and Co etc and ranksacked by Bushrangers who held up the escorted coaches on their way to Sydney. 

The 1850's also saw the separation of Victoria and Queensland from the Colony of NSW, so perhaps HDHE's birth/baptism registration (if in N S Wales  ;) ) may be found only in a parish record anywhere on the east coast !

I'm not familar with Welsh Records, but Jenn, have you recently tried posting a look up request on the RChat board for Wales  ;)
Cheers, JM
.

The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
I do not have a face book or a twitter account.