Can You Find Martin?

[Just Kia]

Martin is a brickwall of mine. [Might help if I added the surname Martin WIMBUSH]
Born (before registration tut tut) c1835
I believe he is the oldest child of Samuel Wimbush and his wife Elizabeth/Betty (based on census returns).
Of course, I can't find the marriage either so have very little to go on here.
1841 census - HO107-573-B3-F37-P27 - Black Lion Court, Manchester aged 6, born in county.
1851 census - HO107-2229-F176-P31 - Long Millgate, Manchester aged 16, born Warrington(?).

But that's it. I can't for the life of me find anything else about this chap. If I didn't have him on 2 different censuses I'd be doubting his existence by now.

[Barbara.H]

Possibly he changed his surname?  Maybe he was Samuel Wimbush's stepson, so born with different surname?

1861 census, Betty Wimbush gives place of birth as Bold, Lancs.

In the same census, if you look for a Martin (no surname), born aroud 1835 in Bold, you get this one:
Martin Knight, pork butcher, born c. 1834, Bold
living with wife Anne at 27 Gt Ducie St in the Market St area of Manchester.
RG9/2950/84 Pg 26

In later censuses, Martin Knight decides he was born Farnworth, not Bold   and adds middle initial N, although he remains a butcher at Gt Ducie St until 1881.

  Barbara

[Luzzu]

There are baptisms at Manchester Cathedral for the following, all children of Samuel and Betty Wimbush:-

William Wimbush bap 8 Jun 1838
Mary Wimbush bap 17 Jun 1841
Betsy Wimbush bap 13 Sep 1843
Betty Wimbush bap 1 Oct 1848
Samuel Wimbush bap 1 Nov 1857

Maybe the fact Martin doesn't appear lends weight to Barbara's suggestion that he was Samuel's stepson  .  Would Betty's maiden name help (from one of the other children's birth certificates)?

May be Martin's baptism has been missed out when thee records were transcribed so if you were to check the Manchester Cathedral baptism register you might find him but it means waiting awhile until Central Library has temporarily relocated as it is closed for refurbishment.

Luzzu

[Just Kia]

Thanks Barbara & Luzzu.
That looks very probable but also looks like it could be a rather tangled one to solve.

What I have so far now is:
1841 - HO107-573-B3-F37-P27 - Black Lion Court, 6, born in county (Martin Wimbush)
1851 - HO107-2229-F176-P31 - Long Millgate, 16, butcher, b.Warrington(?) (Martin Wimbush)
1856 - Marriage - Anne (Hutchinson or Helme) Q2 Manchester 8d 559 (Martin Knight)
1861 - RG09-2950-F84-P26 - Great Ducie St, 27, pork butcher, b.Bold (Martin Knight)
1868 - Marriage - Mary Isherwood Q2 Manchester 8d 649 (Martin Nathaniel Knight)
1871 - RG10-4044-F158-P16 - Ducie St, 36, butcher, b.Farnsworth (Martin N Knight)
1881 - RG11-3992-F13-P20 - Great Ducie St, 45, pork butcher, b.Farnsworth (Martin N Knight)
1891 - RG12-3265-F83-P37 - Ellesmere St, 55, baker, b.Farnsworth (Martin N Knight)
1901 - RG13-3770-F149-P5 - Ellesmere St, 65, baker, b.Farnsworth (Martin Knight)
1911 - RD467 SD1 ED29 SN120 - Ellesmere St, 75, baker, b.Warrington (Martin Nathan Knight)

He's pretty consistent with his age, and doesn't look like he moved around much at all.
Although FREEBMD doesn't have Martin Knight & Mary Isherwood on the same page, Mary's index entry is clearly 649, Martin's is unclear and looks like 619 (number of grooms doesn't match brides). However, one of Martin and Mary's daughters is Rachel Isherwood Knight on the 1911 census.

Searching the IGI I found:
Martin Nathan KNIGHT bp.28 OCT 1792, Farnworth, parents Peter Knight & Betty, C005732.
That's too much of a coincidence to be unrelated, but obviously can't be the same person.
There is also a Peter, same batch/parents bp.13 MAR 1796, Farnworth.
I can not find any Martin Knight on 1841/51 censuses.

So, as Luzzu suggests, I'll order the cert of one of the Wimbush children in the hope of getting Betty's (Samuel Wimbush's wife) maiden name.
Would it be worth ordering one of Martin's marriage certs to see who he names as his father?

[Barbara.H]

just to add - noticed this one on Lancs OPC :

Baptisms: 15 Feb 1835 St Wilfrid, Farnworth near Prescot, Lancashire, England
Martin Nathan Knight - Son of Betsy Knight
Abode: Widnes
Occupation: Single woman
Baptised by: Wm. Jeff - Minister
Register: Baptisms 1828 - 1842, Page 95, Entry 755
Source: LDS Film 1655234 item 5

Possibly mum could be Betsy Wimbush before marriage?

The marriage Martin Knight/Ann Helme is listed on Lancashire BMDs
http://lancashirebmd.org.uk/marriages.html 
as registrar attended. Catholic church marriage maybe?

  Barbara

[Luzzu]

That's a good find, Barbara  .  It looks to be piecing together very nicely.

I think one of Martin's marriage certificates could give the name of the father but equally if he didn't know his father's name he could have invented one or he could have given his step-father's name as I have seen that happen before.

The Martin Knight/Mary Isherwood marriage is also on Lancashire BMD - Manchester Register Office or Register Attended.

Luzzu

[Just Kia]

Thank you.
This has opened up a whole new section of research. I've started a mini tree to try and figure out the Knight's of Farnham/St Wilfrids as there seems to be quite a few illegitimate births and siblings all having children/marrying around the same time period.
I've ordered the birth cert of Samuel to hopefully find Betty's mn.

[misuaorang]

I've arrived late to this thread! I can add one minor snippet of information that slightly strengthens the picture you've put together, which is that on the marriage cert of Betty Wimbush and Patrick Connaughton, about 1880, Betty's address is given as Gt Ducie St. I don't have the details in front of me, which probably means I should keep it to myself until I do, as my memory is far from infallible, but I won't :-) - I'll check when I get home and post any correction necessary.

In the 1871 census (RG10-4048) Betty is living with her sister Mary and brother-in-law William Davies. So it wouldn't be a surprise if at a later date she was living with a different sibling.

Just thought I should point out the obvious possibility, since no doubt it's occurred to people, but hasn't been stated anywhere yet that I can see, that Martin may actually have been Samuel's son, but because the birth occurred before the marriage he used his mother's maiden name. Of course it may not be possible to prove this one way or the other. I've read elsewhere that there may have been some legal obligation to use one's mother's maiden name in the case of an illegitimate birth, even after the parents marry, though I've no idea how reliable that retrospective legal opinion is.

If you get Samuel jnr's birth cert, I'd also be keen to know the details, if you don't mind. I've inherited a "short form" birth cert for Betty, which has hardly any interesting detail on it. Guess I should order the proper one.

Wonder how Martin came to change profession from butcher to baker - guess he made pork pies . Never a candlestick-maker, though, apparently...

I hope someone can dig up a marriage record for Samuel snr and Betty snr.

Tim

[misuaorang]

I've now checked. Betty's marriage cert (from the church, not the GRO - I inherited the original) from her wedding of 21 Nov 1880 says she resides at 27 Great Ducie St, Manchester.

The 1881 census says that Martin Knight resides at 27 Great Ducie St, Manchester. Looks to me like the case is well enough proven, in case anyone had any doubt that Martin Wimbush and Martin Knight were one and the same person.

What I called a "short-form" birth cert for Betty actually really just looks like an acknowledgement of registration - ie I guess that when her parents registered the birth, they got that to prove that they had performed their legal duty to register.

Witnesses at the wedding were John Connaughton and Alice Davies - presumably the latter was Betty's niece, Mary's daughter.

Tim