Seeking information on William Cross b. St. James, Westminster abt 1801 and his

[Red rover]

Some of the earlier children

St James Westminster
1825 May 1, William Matthias, s/o William & Hanna CROSS, abode unreadable, born Oct 9
1828 Jun 8, Edward John, s/o William & Hannah CROSS, Walters Ct??, Bootcloser, born 1826 Oct
1829 Sep 20, Emma, d/o William & Hannah CROSS, abode unreadable, Bootmaker, born Apr 26

Ian C

Thanks for that information, Ian, just a few points:
For each of the three entries, there are two dates, I presume that the first is baptism date and the second the birth date.

It's unfortunate that the addresses aren't known, as it would be interesting to find out when William and Hannah Cross moved from Shadwell to Westminster. Any idea where Walters Court was, I can't find it?

Finally, please can you tell me what I can quote in my records as the source of your info. (e.g. original parish register, CD etc)?

[Red rover]

I've found William Cross b.1796 St Paul, Shadwell on the ParishRegister site but not Hannah Moody.

Please can anyone find William Cross and/or Hannah Moody born St James, Westminster around 1795-1806? All their children, the first of which was William Matthias Cross b.1825, were born there.

[Valda]

Hi

As the parents were living in St James Westminster in 1851 they may have just chosen to give that as their birthplace. The 1861 census doesn't help as they just state London but there is this entry in 1871. Is it Hannah?

1871 census RG10 142 folio 34
5 Bentinck Street St James Westminster
Hannah Cross 68 Widow Laundress Shoreditch Middlesex

Possibility

HANNAH MOODY
Birth:  05 JUL 1803   
Christening:  24 JUL 1803   Saint Leonards, Shoreditch, London
Father:  THOMAS MOODY 
Mother:  HANNAH 


St James Westminster is covered on the IGI. You search specific parishes on the IGI through Hugh Wallis' wesbite though it isn't totally up to date for newer additions.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/


Regards

Valda

[Plummiegirl]

Re: Walter Court - Shadwell

Have a 1930's A-Z and no Walter Court in there - but there are the following 2 Walter Streets

1:  Off Bethnal Green Road, near to Meath Gardens (shown as a small park) & this is close to Shadwell

2:  Close to Bow Creek, Off  Barking Road & Victoria Dock Road, this is Canning Town.


My best bet would be that Walter Court was near to or was at one time no 1.

[Red rover]

Thanks for that information, Valda. The birth details for Hannah sound right. Your explanation of why William and Hannah Cross may have chosen to give Westminster as the family's birth place in the census seems quite likely.

Regarding Hannah Cross in the 1871 census, that may well be William's widow, I hadn't come across that entry before. Incidentally, Bentinck Street is mentioned in the Sherlock Holmes story The Final Problem.

Thanks also for the tip about searching individual parishes on the IGI via Hugh Wallis' site.

Plummiegirl,
The Walter St. (near Meath Gardens) connection ties in nicely with Shadwell, but the birth record for Edward John Cross (b. 1825), which shows the abode as Walters Ct?? is for St. James, Westminster, which I don't think is near Shadwell.

What I'm having trouble with now, are death dates for William and Hannah Cross.

William (b. Shadwell 1796) appears in the 1851 census but not the 1861. There is a William Cross in the 1861 census (ref. Find My Past), but he's a coal dealer born in Lancashire and his wife is Elizabeth. So his death date appears to be between 1851 and 1861.

Following up Velda's discovery of Hannah Cross (b. 1803, St. Leonards, Shoreditch, maiden name Moody) in the 1871 census, I've found her in the 1881 census living at 10, Sherwood St, St James Westminster, with Edwin McGeorge's family:
CROSS, Hannah, Aunt (of head), Widow, F, 77, 1804, No Occupation, Shoreditch, North Green. There is a Hannah Cross in the 1891 census, but not my mine.

So the implication is that she died between 1881 and 1891.

[Valda]

Hi

Edwin McGeorge born Somerset and his wife born Northamptonshire and their children are at 10 Sherwood Place St James Westminster in 1881. They are at the bottom of the page with a line slashed indicating the end of their household. The last two lines at the bottom of the page are left blank. The next page has two people living at the same house but not the same household.

Elizabeth J Cross 44 Stepmother Widow Waistcoatmaker Falmouth Cornwall
Hannah Cross 77 Aunt (something else crossed through) Widow no occupation Shoreditch Middlesex
RG11 127 folio 59

There is a marriage for a Frederick Cross Widower aged 45 a bootcloser to an Elizabeth Jane Potter spinster aged 36 whose father William James Potter was a sailor. The marriage took place 30th June 1872 at St Bartholomew Moor Lane in the City of London. They were both of 11 Shilton? Street. The witnesses were Vincent Hyde Mose and Louisa Mose.

There is a death registered in Westminster in 1880 for a Frederick Cross aged 54 and there is an Elizabeth J Potter found on earlier censuses but 5 years older (not with a father) born Falmouth.
1851 Elizabeth J niece aged 18

On the marriage Frederick states his father was Robert Cross a bootcloser

Marriages Sep 1871 
Cross  Louisa    London C.  1c 45       
MOSE  Vincent Hyde     London C  1c 45

Vincent and Louisa married at the same church as Frederick on 20th August 1871. Louisa was a 26 year old spinster. Her father was Robert Cross bootcloser. Their address was Shilton? Street.


On the 1861 census there is this family

RG9 60 folio
24 Great Windmill Street St James Westminster
Frederic Cross 36 Head Married Bootcloser St James Westminster
Elizabeth Cross 27 Wife Married Falmouth Cornwall
Emily Cross 12 Daughter  St James Westminster
Louisa Cross 10 Daughter St James Westminster


1841 census HO107 735/7 folio 29
Brewer Street St James Westminster
Robert Cross 40 Boot maker
Eliza Cross 40
Frederick Cross 16
Henry Cross 11
Thomas Cross 9
George Cross 7
Robert Cross 5
Eliza Cross 3
James Cross 1
all born Middlesex - Robert neither a yes or no

1851 census HO107 1483 folio 123
2 New Street St James Westminster, Middlesex 
Robert Cross 47 Head Married Boot cleaner Marylebone Middlesex
Elizabeth Cross  39 Wife Married Shoreditch
Henry Cross 20 Son Bootmaker Shoman St Giles
Thomas Cross 17 Son Bootmaker Shopman St James 
George Cross 15 Son Greengrocer errand boy St James
Robbert Cross 14 Boot closer St James 
Eliza Cross 12 Daughter St James 
Louisa Cross 6 Daughter St James
Andrew Cross 4 Son St James Son St James
Elizabeth Cross 2 Daughter St James
Edwin Cross 6 Son St James


Bishop Transcript (copy of the marriage register not the register itself)
18 Apr 1825 St James, Piccadilly, Westminster
Robert Cross
Elizabeth Bay Moody
Married by banns, both signed
Witnesses Mary Moody her mark and ?

ELISABETH BUY MOODY
Birth:  06 SEP 1807   
Christening:  27 DEC 1807   Saint Leonards, Shoreditch, London
Father:  THOMAS MOODY 
Mother:  MARY 


There are two potential baptisms for a Robert Cross in Marylebone on the IGI (which is not a complete index)

One in 1804 parents Robert and Mary and one in 1806 parents William and Mary. There isn't a baptism showing for either set of parents for a son William circa 1801 (from William's age shown on the 1851 census with what might now be a correctish birthplace - one in that generally area.



Regards

Valda

[Red rover]

Hi Valda,

Wow, there's plenty there to keep me busy!

I downloaded the image and transcript for Hannah Cross (RG11 Piece: 127 Folio: 58
Page: 30) but only the transcript showed Hannah's details, lumped together with the McGeorge family. I contacted FindMyPast.com about it and they sent me the second page. I don't understand the Relation to head entry on the image, the first two entries are, as you say,
Elizabeth J Cross 44 Stepmother Widow Waistcoatmaker Falmouth Cornwall
Hannah Cross 77 Aunt (something else crossed through) Widow no occupation Shoreditch Middlesex,
but no head is stated. Any ideas?

Regards,

[Valda]

Hi

Just a mess up by the enumerator. This is what is given about the census process in the guide at the top of the board to censuses.

'In the days leading up to a census night an enumerator delivered individually numbered household schedules to each household in his district. On the morning after census night, the enumerator went round to each house and collected the forms. He had a duty to ensure that all the forms were completed properly and collected, even if this meant going back to some houses many times. In the London area with many accents, dialects and languages spoken, illiteracy and even just a lack of teeth, reading and writing the information onto the household schedules was a mammoth task for the census enumerator. Spellings can be very ‘flexible’. Once all the forms were gathered in what could then be a tired enumerator working in candlelight copied the information from them onto large sheets which were bound into volumes with a folio number stamped on the top corner of each right hand page. These volumes were then delivered to government statisticians whose job it was to extract important data about the population as a whole. In the course of this process, they often made marks and notes on the pages which can cause confusion when we try to decipher the information. The original household schedules were destroyed'

The census enumerator had to do the best he could with what was written.
It is likely the two women had a household together. Hannah was the aunt and Elizabeth was a niece by marriage. The term 'in law' was interchangeable with 'step'.


Regards

Valda

[Red rover]

The current situation regarding my early family (Cross branch) is:

JOHN CROSS (b. 1775) and ANN (b. 1776) both Ref. Parishregister.com, St Paul Shadwell, 1775 to 1812 and IGI,
  parents of

  WILLIAM CROSS b. 1796 Shadwell, Middx, ref. parishregister.com, St Paul Shadwell, 1775-1812.
  Thomas Moody and Hannah (no further details known yet) parents of (Ref IGI).
  HANNAH MOODY b. 5 July, 1803, christened 24 July 1803, St Leonards, Shoreditch, London, Ref. IGI.

William married HANNAH 11.1.1824.ref. Rootschat forum, information from St Paul, Shadwell parish records.
William and Hannah's names from son Albert Joseph Cross' birth certificate (Westminster, 1840).
  William and Hannah parents of

WILLIAM MATHIAS CROSS b. 9th Oct 1824. Christened 1st May 1825, St James, Westminster. ref IGI.
  who married (1st Sept 1845, ref. marriage certificate)
  DEBORAH ALLEN b. 1822 ref 1851 census. (christened 13 May 1821 Newchurch, Hampshire (I.O.W.), IGI)
  W.M.C. and Deborah parents of

ALFRED THOMAS CROSS b. 1849
  who married (17th April 1871, ref. marriage certificate)
  ELLEN MARIA MASON b. 1854 FindMyPast 1881 census
  they were parents of

ALFRED THOMAS CROSS (same name as his father) b. 23rd February 1872, St. James, Middlesex (ref. birth certificate)
  who married 14th Feb. 1891 St. Pauls, Bow Common, London (ref. marriage certificate)
  EMMA JANE JONES b. 10th Oct 1870 26, Blair Street, Bromley, Middlesex (ref. birth certificate).
The above couple were my paternal grandparents.

HOWEVER, I'm not 100% convinced that William Cross (b.1796 Shadwell, Middx.) and wife Hannah were my ancestors and moved to Westminster, but in the absence of information to the contrary, I will have to accept the suggestion of Valda's, i.e., As the parents were living in St James Westminster in 1851 they may have just chosen to give that as their birthplace. (See post 11).

I would be grateful for any further information which clarifies the Shadwell  (or Westminster) connection.

Regards,

Red.